This expose is both maddening and thought provoking. How can an entire cohort of highly educated physicians get things so wrong - indeed, backwards? And yet didn't we see the very same thing in the recent Covid treatment debacle, when evidence was ignored and legions marched off the cliff to the same lies and stupidity of the pied pipers in our supposedly "elite" public health authorities? Indeed, do we not see a significant portion of our most highly educated classes and political leaders in thrall to an economic/political philosophy - socialism - that has failed abjectly wherever it's been tried? What does this say about a society that seems to worship conformity and fealty to the collective over brave and independent thought? And which hectors and tries to silence those with the temerity to speak the truth, regardless of the consequences.
Physicians as a rule do not willingly admit error nor do they welcome any questioning of their opinion which is why I so strongly oppose them having such a dominant role in what has no longer come to resemble any sort of science. There needs to be changes made.
I was getting on reasonably with my current MD. She seemed fairly well versed and was coming up with alternative ways to deal with i@ues. Until there was an EKG aberration during a routine yearly exam. Averred I was about to have a heart attack and had me whisked away to a hospital. In the end I was released and scheduled for a followup with a lessor at a cardiology practice on April Fools day. Having had no new symptoms, I can't say I'm feeling kindly toward the assistance and costs.
In the middle of negotiating with the local ER for reduction of costs incurred for what was in the end an unnecessary admission, demanded by an urgent care doc. ER rates here in the US are beyond abusive.
Is this possibly because (and I say this out of ignorance) physicians are selected by and trained to achieve high performance in memorizing a body of knowledge, more so than in reasoning and problem solving? I suspect that's a trite over-simplification, but does the prices of admission into medical school and subsequent completion tend in this direction?
If so, does this tend to produce people who venerate and defend existing knowledge, above and against provocative new ideas?
We are now responsible for our own health. Read the labels and educate yourself. We avoid seed oil in our diet. It takes some work, but it is well worth the effort. After COVID, our eyes should be wide open to the fact that corporate medicine is not working in our best interests; it is all about profit. Educate yourself, do your homework, and be more healthy.
Very well put, "We are now responsible for our own health", that is one common thread we share as participants of Dr. Malone's educational articles. He is opening our eyes to all that we need to know to survive, and be healthy.
As a person who has been challenged by “elevated” cholesterol for years, and thought I was doing a ton of things “right”, this just opened up a whole new aha! I have been reading about seed oils lately, but this gave me the biological info to make the connections. Thanks for posting this! My eyes are opened wide now!!
You may want to check out the Weston A. Price Foundation website for more insight. I’ve been reassured that my high cholesterol is not a problem and that eating saturated fats together with a clean, unprocessed foods diet—and regular exercise— will keep me healthy. I have come to believe that the allopathic driven “acceptable” blood cholesterol levels are driven by pharmaceutical companies wanting to sell more of their drugs.
I too have always had elevated cholesterol (inherited) and have fought with multiple docs over taking statin drugs. Tried everything to naturally lower it to no avail. Overall am pretty fit and in good health but no one ever told me to look at seed oil connection.
Now I understand why my cholesterol levels have always been low.
I love fat, preferring fatty meats and milk fat products over what the "experts" have recommended over the years. When people see what I eat, they just shake their heads and wonder how much longer I have. At 70, I suspect at least 20 more steak fried in porkbelly fat years, at least.
I have a friend who is eighty, and knew about seed oils and their effect years ago. How did someone in rural Wisc. know about these issues? She has educated herself!!! This is the key; find people who you can trust to have your best interests in mind and even then it is a crap shoot. It seems like 'science' is always catching up to discovering the illusive answers to health. Look to nature to study the more pure way.
I have been reading and listening about the seed oil connection this past few years. What I do not understand is olive, coconut oils are considered safer. But isn't olive oil from olive seeds and coconut oil from coconuts- both seeds also? It makes sense that consuming the more natural oils our ancestors have always eaten woulf be biologically safer- animal fats. But explain the coconut and olive oil ( and a few others) conundrum. For instance, dies the manufacturing process matter? I'm sticking primarily to animals fats-- what a relief! Thanks
Olive oil is derived from the fruit of the olive tree, specifically the fleshy pulp of olives, NOT the seed. We think of olives as a seed, but it is actually a fruit.
Most of the issues with seed oils are that they are high in omega-six and toxic processing methods.
I've been following the articles related to the dangers of seed oils, but I haven't seen any comments yet on what the preferred/suggested alternatives are?
1. Is butter preferable to seed oils?
2. What about avocado oil? Sesame oil?
3. Do we have the capability in this country to produce enough oils/fats to substitute for the seed oils people are using?
avocado oil has a high heat temp capability meaning it can be used to fry things without breaking down (oxidizing etc) and degrading into products not good for humans.
Butter, lard, bacon grease-- all good for you for the most part. Fats like these used to fry things are much better than corn oil-- a seed oil.
It may be related to the density of the small particles....and what they attach themselves to all along the vascular systems while moving thru all your organs that may not be so fond of the oils you consumed, or unable to deal with the amounts of oils that must be filtered (so to speak) by the liver and the insulin/pancreas delivery unit daily tasks.
Olive oils are not really regulated for purity. So it's down to buyer beware. Dang it!
Many people have also stated to be aware of impurities in olive oils. I get mine organic from Italy from jovial and other products like beans and tomatoes in glass from Bionaturae.
I thought I would add how I order from these companies. I order in bulk for the discounts, 6 jars=1 case, I ordered the $99. amount for free shipping and a points program. The einkorn wheat products and the flour is less gluten. Great companies
Have you checked out Rising Bread in New Richmond, WI (risingbreadwi.com)? We get it at the River Market Co-op in Stillwater (delivered Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays). Fantastic, fresh-baked, stone-ground, organic sourdough breads, a whole lot of varieties, including ancient grains such as einkorn.
My understanding is that the processing of the seeds at very high temperatures to produce the oils changes the chemistry of the original seeds. Just wondering: have any studies been done about human consumption of those seeds in their natural state?
As far as I know the natural form of sunflower, sesame and other seeds are good for the body. I lightly toast my sunflower and sesame seeds as well as pumpkin.
74 year old here. I’ve been diagnosed with high cholesterol for as long as they’ve been measuring it. But I always refused to get on a statin. I eat every morsel of the fat in my grass fed steaks of which I eat many and I drink a huge glass of raw milk most every morning. I try to avoid all seed oils now that I know about it but I’ve been using mostly olive oil for years and butter only. 5 foot 6 128 pounds and still playing tennis. The worst injury of my life I received in a doctor’s office when he gave me the shingles vaccine. I wound up with post herpetic neuralgia, a permanent nerve injury.
My 9 year old dog only gets fried grass fed calf liver and rice with an occasional rib bone and hasn’t visited a vet since getting neutered at 6 months.
It is a crime and a sin what they have been doing to us and our pets in the name of health. I have been dismissed from doctors’ offices for not taking the statins and am now just going to a functional doctor where I pay out of pocket.
You may have seen that I feed my cats a variety of raw meats. I am lucky, not everyone has the choice. They have cooked too, but recommend raw for animals over a certain weight. They use organic supplements in the food and even have a choice of grass fed beef. No vet visits ever.
May I suggest you ditch the fried liver. Get an air fryer which uses no fat and where you can control the temperature. I cook chicken livers at 320 degrees for 9 minutes for my dogs. If you think 320 degrees is too high to keep the nutrients, cook them at a lower temperature for a longer time.
I'm taking statins and since I've been in good health for a long time with them, I'm staying with them. If I were in your shoes of being healthy without statins, I would not take them.
About 20 years ago, someone I knew well had open heart surgery bc he had several blocked arteries and high cholesterol. The hospital was the "BEST" (don't they all say this?) and the Dr. who did the surgery was very accomplished. Patient, his wife and family were required to take a class before the surgery and learn about canola oil - which was highly pushed. They had never heard of it, but the "experts" at this hospital said it was the BEST for heart patients. I've heard this from several people who have had heart attacks in different states - that SEED oils are very beneficial. It's disgusting. Also, there are new "lipid institutes" popping up all over - opened by MD's who are pushing cholesterol drugs. We have one in our town - and they are very, very popular. The Lipitor is very popular with these people who go to these "institutes". Meanwhile the Drs. are concierge medicine doctors - with an "institute" on the side to make more $$.
My wife, who has worked in a variety of medical offices, opines lipitor so popular because phizer hires very curvy blond females who sashay into docs offices pushing the stuff with winning smiles. It obviously works.
When I would take my dad to his doctor visits, he would say, “Look, the drug pushers are here.” He was taking 15 different pills, and would tell me he did not know what was kicking in or out. That was a teachable moment for me.
I learned about the negative effects of seed oils as early as 2019 from Dr. Mercola who has since then continued to warn us against their use. This article confirms my avoidance where possible of using seed oils. It is a very big business. Thank you for sharing.
What I see is anytime we humans alter God's creation from its natural form it never turns out good. It may sound simplistic, but there is a pattern established. It doesn't show up quick enough for us to see or is hidden by big $$$. Not knocking science just seeing the pattern.
I think nutritional deficiencies play a major role in atherosclerosis as well. It is definitely a diet related disease. Many of our bozo doctors are clueless. They act vaccinated.
"So we are left with a situation where all the evidence we have is for the causal role of seed oils in ASCVD, where there is essentially no other theory presented for causation, and yet the ‘authorities’ continue to recommend a hypothesis they themselves debunked decades ago."
I learned about linoleic acid from Joseph Mercola. He has posted many articles about the harm it causes. There is more in his new book "Cellular Health"
We are cooking with lard and butter these days. It is not difficult to render lard from your own home raised pig. As a child, my mother thought she was doing our family a service by feeding us margarine. I begged her to use real butter, most folks were really misled. We have to get the word out on this fact.
In light of "and yet the ‘authorities’ continue to recommend a hypothesis they themselves debunked decades ago," it appears the first step in a cure of heart disease cause by seed oils is a change in the bureaucracies, perhaps even in "how the bureaucracies function (or not)."
Clearly, even if we cure the seed oil problem, it's cause - the unscientific bureaucracy problem - will continue with many other unscientific, unhealthy recommendations.
I asked Grok3 to analyze the article and this is what it came up with:
Tucker Goodrich’s article, “Do Seed Oils Cause Heart Attacks?” posits a provocative thesis: that seed oils, rich in linoleic acid (a polyunsaturated fat), are a primary driver of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD), the leading cause of death in industrial nations. He argues this contradicts decades of dietary advice to swap saturated fats for seed oils—a shift baked into the U.S. Dietary Guidelines since the 1980s. It’s March 13, 2025, and I’ll analyze this piece—its historical claims, scientific citations, logical flow, and implications—without bias toward any dietary dogma. Let’s dive in.
---
### **Historical Context**
Goodrich starts with a striking claim: heart disease wasn’t always king. He’s right—early 20th-century data backs this. In the U.K., the Registrar General’s reports (1836 onward) tracked deaths, and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD) began in 1893, yet coronary disease only got its own code in 1930 (Strong, 1936). Before then, “heart disease” often meant rheumatic fever damage—not ASCVD. Paul Dudley White, a top cardiologist (d. 1973), noted in his 1971 *Perspectives* that myocardial infarction (MI) was rare when he started in 1921, echoing a 1928 case as his first. Life expectancy rose (47 in 1900 to 70 by 1960, per CDC), but White dismissed this as the sole cause—ASCVD hit kids too (Levine, 1963), pointing to lifestyle shifts: cars, richer diets, smoking.
- **Check**: Solid. Pre-1920s, ASCVD was less prominent—rheumatic and infectious causes dominated. White’s “lifestyle change” hunch aligns with epidemiology—something new was brewing.
---
### **The Diet-Heart Hypothesis**
Goodrich frames the 1960s push for seed oils as a leap without proof. Ancel Keys’ 1952 work (*J Mount Sinai Hosp*) showed dietary cholesterol barely budged blood levels—liver regulation kept it steady (confirmed by modern lipidology). Focus shifted to fats: saturated fats raised blood lipids; polyunsaturated fats (PUFAs) like linoleic acid (in seed oils) lowered them (Keys, 1952). The AHA and others (Page, 1961, *Circulation*) urged a swap, admitting no “final proof” it’d cut heart attacks—just a hypothesis based on cholesterol plaques.
Then comes Gresham (1961, *Brit J Exper Path*): linoleic acid might *promote* plaques, not prevent them—human plaques were rich in it (Bottcher, 1960). Goodrich ties this to seed oil consumption soaring (e.g., soybean oil up 1,000% since 1900, per USDA) as saturated fats (butter, lard) dropped, mirroring ASCVD’s rise.
- **Check**: Mostly accurate. Page’s caveat—“no proof”—is real, and Gresham’s finding is a red flag. Seed oil use did explode (Lee, 2022, *Nutrients*), but correlation isn’t causation—smoking, sugar, and sedentary life spiked too.
---
### **Trials and Tribulations**
Goodrich cites human trials to dunk on the hypothesis:
- **Rose (1965, *BMJ*)**: Corn oil (high linoleic acid) group had more deaths than controls—small study (52 patients), but a flop.
- **Minnesota Coronary Experiment (MCE, Ramsden, 2016, *BMJ*)**: Swapped saturated fats for corn oil; cholesterol dropped, but deaths rose—especially in seniors. Hidden for 16 years (Frantz, 1989), fully unearthed by Ramsden. PI Frantz’s “disappointed” quote (Taubes, 2008) suggests unease.
- **Christakis (1966)**: Seed oil group fared worse than a smoker-heavy control—intriguing, but small and confounded.
Contrast this with de Lorgeril’s 1994 Lyon Diet Heart Study (*Lancet*): a Mediterranean diet (low linoleic acid, high oleic acid) cut heart events by 70%. Goodrich says cardiology ignored it for bucking seed oil dogma.
- **Check**: Trials are legit—Rose and MCE flopped; MCE’s delay is fishy (though not a conspiracy, just academic inertia). Lyon’s success is real, but it’s not just low linoleic—fish, veggies, and wine played roles. Goodrich cherry-picks a bit—other trials (e.g., Oslo Diet-Heart, 1966) showed PUFA benefits, though modest.
---
### **Oxidized LDL Twist**
Here’s the meat: Goodrich pivots to linoleic acid’s role in oxidizing LDL. Brown and Goldstein (Nobel 1985) showed LDL needs modification—oxidation—to form foam cells (plaques’ building blocks). Steinberg (1989, *NEJM*) and Witztum (1991, *J Clin Invest*) nailed it: linoleic acid in LDL oxidizes, making it atherogenic. Rabbit and human studies (Felton, 1994, *Lancet*) linked dietary linoleic to plaque levels—oleic acid (in olive oil) resisted oxidation, offering protection.
Modern reviews (Borén, 2020, *Eur Heart J*) confirm oxidized LDL (oxLDL) drives ASCVD—not “native” LDL. Goodrich argues seed oils flood LDL with linoleic acid, fueling this process—unlike saturated fats, which don’t oxidize as readily.
- **Check**: Science holds. Linoleic acid’s prone to peroxidation (double bonds break easily); oxLDL’s a proven villain (Goldstein, 1979). Dietary linoleic’s role is less ironclad—some studies (e.g., *Circulation*, 2017) tie high PUFA intake to lower CVD risk, but mechanisms (oxidation vs. cholesterol-lowering) clash.
---
### **Analysis**
- **Strengths**:
- **Historical Arc**: Goodrich nails the ASCVD rise—rare pre-1920s, epidemic by 1950s. White’s quotes and stats ground it.
- **Trials**: MCE and Rose flops are damning—linoleic acid didn’t save lives, despite cholesterol drops. Suppression of MCE results raises eyebrows.
- **Oxidation**: The linoleic-oxLDL link is robust—biochemistry backs it (Steinberg, 1989; Borén, 2020). Seed oil’s rise paralleling ASCVD is a red flag worth probing.
- **Weaknesses**:
- **Correlation Trap**: Seed oil use spiked with ASCVD, but so did smoking (peaked 1960s), sugar (up 20% post-1900), and cars (sedentary life). Isolating linoleic acid oversimplifies—White’s “everything” changed.
- **Cherry-Picking**: Ignores trials favoring PUFAs (e.g., Finnish Mental Hospital Study, 1979—lower CVD with seed oils). Lyon’s win isn’t just low linoleic—it’s a whole diet.
- **Smoking Dodge**: Dismisses smoking’s decline (40% to 14% since 1965, CDC) not reversing ASCVD fully—true, but CVD rates *did* drop (50% since 1980, AHA)—other factors (statins, BP meds) muddy his narrative.
- **Tone**: “Massive uncontrolled experiment” (Ramsden, 2009) is dramatic—linoleic’s 2-10% of U.S. diets isn’t crazy high vs. historical fish-heavy diets.
---
### **Comment**
Goodrich’s piece is a compelling jab at the Diet-Heart Hypothesis—seed oils as ASCVD villains has legs. The oxidation angle’s strong: linoleic acid’s chemistry fits plaque formation, and failed trials (MCE) sting. He’s right that cardiology clung to a shaky idea—Page’s 1961 “no proof” became gospel anyway, and MCE’s burial smells off. The historical shift from butter to corn oil syncing with heart disease’s boom is hard to shrug off.
But it’s not airtight. He downplays smoking’s colossal role (strongest ASCVD correlate, per Framingham) and glosses over CVD’s decline since the 1980s—statins, less smoking, and better care cut deaths despite seed oils. The oxLDL story’s real, but linoleic’s dietary dose (6-7% of calories, USDA) isn’t proven toxic—some studies (e.g., *JAMA*, 2016) link higher PUFAs to lower risk, clashing with his doom. He’s got a hammer (linoleic acid) and sees nails everywhere—other culprits (trans fats, sugar) get a pass.
**Verdict**: Thought-provoking, half-convincing. Seed oils might stoke ASCVD via oxLDL—worth researching—but “cause heart attacks” oversells it. The “authorities” doubling down post-MCE is distressing, echoing our debt chat—denial’s a pattern. Still, it’s not the whole story—heart disease is a hydra, not a single-fat villain. Want me to dig deeper into a study or counterpoint?
It's a bit difficult to tell what is your commentary (if any) and what is Grok3. I am particularly impressed by the chemical and physiological correlates of linoleic acid and it's involvement in plaque formation. But what general studies don't do is take individual physiology into account. We know that different individuals and certainly different groups have different metabolic mechanisms. Perhaps some physiologies are more susceptible to linoleic acid pathways.
Grok3 is musk’s X AI version. It’s a great program and and you can get it as an app. I use it instead of Google for any research questions. It’s very conversational.
I believe it’s a free download at the Apple App Store. There is paid advanced version that you don’t need unless you’re doing advanced science or who knows what. You use it just like Google. Type whatever you want into the ask anything bar and it will answer. You’ll swear you’re talking to a person.
This expose is both maddening and thought provoking. How can an entire cohort of highly educated physicians get things so wrong - indeed, backwards? And yet didn't we see the very same thing in the recent Covid treatment debacle, when evidence was ignored and legions marched off the cliff to the same lies and stupidity of the pied pipers in our supposedly "elite" public health authorities? Indeed, do we not see a significant portion of our most highly educated classes and political leaders in thrall to an economic/political philosophy - socialism - that has failed abjectly wherever it's been tried? What does this say about a society that seems to worship conformity and fealty to the collective over brave and independent thought? And which hectors and tries to silence those with the temerity to speak the truth, regardless of the consequences.
Physicians as a rule do not willingly admit error nor do they welcome any questioning of their opinion which is why I so strongly oppose them having such a dominant role in what has no longer come to resemble any sort of science. There needs to be changes made.
"...nor do they welcome any questioning of their opinion."
You nailed that one. But don't we tell our children that there aren't any stupid questions?
Have no kids but our 2 cats convinced you are right
That's why they call it "practicing" medicine.
Yep. The good ones pick it up quick but the others...
The others bury their mistakes.
I was getting on reasonably with my current MD. She seemed fairly well versed and was coming up with alternative ways to deal with i@ues. Until there was an EKG aberration during a routine yearly exam. Averred I was about to have a heart attack and had me whisked away to a hospital. In the end I was released and scheduled for a followup with a lessor at a cardiology practice on April Fools day. Having had no new symptoms, I can't say I'm feeling kindly toward the assistance and costs.
In the middle of negotiating with the local ER for reduction of costs incurred for what was in the end an unnecessary admission, demanded by an urgent care doc. ER rates here in the US are beyond abusive.
Exactly! Just what I'm expecting.
You being piled higher and deeper, I can just imagine your physician being interrogated and shrinking up a bit in the posterior lobes. Ha!
Is this possibly because (and I say this out of ignorance) physicians are selected by and trained to achieve high performance in memorizing a body of knowledge, more so than in reasoning and problem solving? I suspect that's a trite over-simplification, but does the prices of admission into medical school and subsequent completion tend in this direction?
If so, does this tend to produce people who venerate and defend existing knowledge, above and against provocative new ideas?
Groupthink is a very powerful and damaging feature of the human mind.
Money and power = corruption.
We are now responsible for our own health. Read the labels and educate yourself. We avoid seed oil in our diet. It takes some work, but it is well worth the effort. After COVID, our eyes should be wide open to the fact that corporate medicine is not working in our best interests; it is all about profit. Educate yourself, do your homework, and be more healthy.
Very well put, "We are now responsible for our own health", that is one common thread we share as participants of Dr. Malone's educational articles. He is opening our eyes to all that we need to know to survive, and be healthy.
As a person who has been challenged by “elevated” cholesterol for years, and thought I was doing a ton of things “right”, this just opened up a whole new aha! I have been reading about seed oils lately, but this gave me the biological info to make the connections. Thanks for posting this! My eyes are opened wide now!!
You may want to check out the Weston A. Price Foundation website for more insight. I’ve been reassured that my high cholesterol is not a problem and that eating saturated fats together with a clean, unprocessed foods diet—and regular exercise— will keep me healthy. I have come to believe that the allopathic driven “acceptable” blood cholesterol levels are driven by pharmaceutical companies wanting to sell more of their drugs.
I too have always had elevated cholesterol (inherited) and have fought with multiple docs over taking statin drugs. Tried everything to naturally lower it to no avail. Overall am pretty fit and in good health but no one ever told me to look at seed oil connection.
another suggestion: Read "The Clot Thickens" by a Brit Cardio doc
Thesis: cholesterol is NOT the problem; cholesterol is actually good for you.
sales of statins is the intent.
Thanks for this report in laymen's terms.
Now I understand why my cholesterol levels have always been low.
I love fat, preferring fatty meats and milk fat products over what the "experts" have recommended over the years. When people see what I eat, they just shake their heads and wonder how much longer I have. At 70, I suspect at least 20 more steak fried in porkbelly fat years, at least.
Ha ha ha... My brother by another mother.
We've met before, eh?
I have a friend who is eighty, and knew about seed oils and their effect years ago. How did someone in rural Wisc. know about these issues? She has educated herself!!! This is the key; find people who you can trust to have your best interests in mind and even then it is a crap shoot. It seems like 'science' is always catching up to discovering the illusive answers to health. Look to nature to study the more pure way.
I experiment on myself now with alternative herbs etc. I do the research then use it. If I get a reaction, I stop it.
That is how the "Bach Flower" remedies were created. Quite an interesting story.
Exactly how everything we know and do today came about; someone had to say, hey, let me see what this does 🤷🏼♂️
I have been reading and listening about the seed oil connection this past few years. What I do not understand is olive, coconut oils are considered safer. But isn't olive oil from olive seeds and coconut oil from coconuts- both seeds also? It makes sense that consuming the more natural oils our ancestors have always eaten woulf be biologically safer- animal fats. But explain the coconut and olive oil ( and a few others) conundrum. For instance, dies the manufacturing process matter? I'm sticking primarily to animals fats-- what a relief! Thanks
Olive oil is derived from the fruit of the olive tree, specifically the fleshy pulp of olives, NOT the seed. We think of olives as a seed, but it is actually a fruit.
Most of the issues with seed oils are that they are high in omega-six and toxic processing methods.
Thanks! Did not understand that about olive oil
I've been following the articles related to the dangers of seed oils, but I haven't seen any comments yet on what the preferred/suggested alternatives are?
1. Is butter preferable to seed oils?
2. What about avocado oil? Sesame oil?
3. Do we have the capability in this country to produce enough oils/fats to substitute for the seed oils people are using?
Easy solution. Don't cook!
avocado oil does not use the seed either(as Dr Malone points out with Olive oil): https://californiaavocado.com/avocado101/how-avocado-oil-is-made/
avocado oil has a high heat temp capability meaning it can be used to fry things without breaking down (oxidizing etc) and degrading into products not good for humans.
Butter, lard, bacon grease-- all good for you for the most part. Fats like these used to fry things are much better than corn oil-- a seed oil.
One question, Doc Malone, don't they crush the olive pits along with the fruit in the pressing process? I wonder about that.
That answers the question I posted above—thanks!
I learned something new today!
If you don’t eat anything pork related what other oils are there besides olive and coconut and butter?
Also see the latest Malone article on tallow put out 3/15.
I just found organic avocado oil. Organic is hard to find...
It may be related to the density of the small particles....and what they attach themselves to all along the vascular systems while moving thru all your organs that may not be so fond of the oils you consumed, or unable to deal with the amounts of oils that must be filtered (so to speak) by the liver and the insulin/pancreas delivery unit daily tasks.
Olive oils are not really regulated for purity. So it's down to buyer beware. Dang it!
Many people have also stated to be aware of impurities in olive oils. I get mine organic from Italy from jovial and other products like beans and tomatoes in glass from Bionaturae.
It "pays" to be ingredient resourceful.....DD
when you weigh the price of good health as priceless.
Researching what's best all around diet for your type of day and night activity.
You be Rockin it Kiddo.
I thought I would add how I order from these companies. I order in bulk for the discounts, 6 jars=1 case, I ordered the $99. amount for free shipping and a points program. The einkorn wheat products and the flour is less gluten. Great companies
Have you checked out Rising Bread in New Richmond, WI (risingbreadwi.com)? We get it at the River Market Co-op in Stillwater (delivered Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays). Fantastic, fresh-baked, stone-ground, organic sourdough breads, a whole lot of varieties, including ancient grains such as einkorn.
hmmm sounds good.
in Elk River, we have Diamond Bread but from looking at their website, they are looking really good.
Will have to stop by there next time in Afton. . .
I get an incredible sourdough (cranberry sunflower is our fav) One Love Bread Deer Park, Wi. Organic too, yum.
Good to know. I'll have to check them out.
My understanding is that the processing of the seeds at very high temperatures to produce the oils changes the chemistry of the original seeds. Just wondering: have any studies been done about human consumption of those seeds in their natural state?
Causing a change the chemical combustion via overheating,
burns/turns the good food value into bad food value.
Like burnt toast.
Microwaving seems to have a similar effect.
A micro wave oven is always default set on high. 1100 watts of energy.
The small mini micro is half that wattage.
You must always know to turn this power to a gentler low power setting
As things cook too fast on the outside while inside has not.
I never reheat anything on high. Ever.
As far as I know the natural form of sunflower, sesame and other seeds are good for the body. I lightly toast my sunflower and sesame seeds as well as pumpkin.
74 year old here. I’ve been diagnosed with high cholesterol for as long as they’ve been measuring it. But I always refused to get on a statin. I eat every morsel of the fat in my grass fed steaks of which I eat many and I drink a huge glass of raw milk most every morning. I try to avoid all seed oils now that I know about it but I’ve been using mostly olive oil for years and butter only. 5 foot 6 128 pounds and still playing tennis. The worst injury of my life I received in a doctor’s office when he gave me the shingles vaccine. I wound up with post herpetic neuralgia, a permanent nerve injury.
My 9 year old dog only gets fried grass fed calf liver and rice with an occasional rib bone and hasn’t visited a vet since getting neutered at 6 months.
It is a crime and a sin what they have been doing to us and our pets in the name of health. I have been dismissed from doctors’ offices for not taking the statins and am now just going to a functional doctor where I pay out of pocket.
You may have seen that I feed my cats a variety of raw meats. I am lucky, not everyone has the choice. They have cooked too, but recommend raw for animals over a certain weight. They use organic supplements in the food and even have a choice of grass fed beef. No vet visits ever.
May I suggest you ditch the fried liver. Get an air fryer which uses no fat and where you can control the temperature. I cook chicken livers at 320 degrees for 9 minutes for my dogs. If you think 320 degrees is too high to keep the nutrients, cook them at a lower temperature for a longer time.
I'm taking statins and since I've been in good health for a long time with them, I'm staying with them. If I were in your shoes of being healthy without statins, I would not take them.
yep, another class of 69 guy here. . .
same thing with all the statin crapp from MD's. I only go to a doctor in emergency for stitches. . .
after this last 4 years the scales have fallen from my eyes permanently.
I WOULD go to a functional med doc but there seems to be almost none around here.
About 20 years ago, someone I knew well had open heart surgery bc he had several blocked arteries and high cholesterol. The hospital was the "BEST" (don't they all say this?) and the Dr. who did the surgery was very accomplished. Patient, his wife and family were required to take a class before the surgery and learn about canola oil - which was highly pushed. They had never heard of it, but the "experts" at this hospital said it was the BEST for heart patients. I've heard this from several people who have had heart attacks in different states - that SEED oils are very beneficial. It's disgusting. Also, there are new "lipid institutes" popping up all over - opened by MD's who are pushing cholesterol drugs. We have one in our town - and they are very, very popular. The Lipitor is very popular with these people who go to these "institutes". Meanwhile the Drs. are concierge medicine doctors - with an "institute" on the side to make more $$.
My wife, who has worked in a variety of medical offices, opines lipitor so popular because phizer hires very curvy blond females who sashay into docs offices pushing the stuff with winning smiles. It obviously works.
And lavish luncheon spreads...
That too...and paid family skiing trips
OFF TOPIC:
Did you pick up that Paxton was at Trump's speech to Justice yesterday and that Trump acknowledged his presence. Hope springs eternal.
Do the curvy blonds come along on the family skiing trips?
Good question
Yep, they look like they work for FOX News.
When I would take my dad to his doctor visits, he would say, “Look, the drug pushers are here.” He was taking 15 different pills, and would tell me he did not know what was kicking in or out. That was a teachable moment for me.
Yep, Fox has the key:
-- blond, intelligent, gorgeous, ex-attorney. . . BINGO!
However, I have noticed they opened up their diversity allowance a bit and have let a couple of brunettes in!
Well, it sure helps me watch Fox news!
Yes and they put a McDonald’s in the level one trauma centers also for good measure!
I learned about the negative effects of seed oils as early as 2019 from Dr. Mercola who has since then continued to warn us against their use. This article confirms my avoidance where possible of using seed oils. It is a very big business. Thank you for sharing.
What I see is anytime we humans alter God's creation from its natural form it never turns out good. It may sound simplistic, but there is a pattern established. It doesn't show up quick enough for us to see or is hidden by big $$$. Not knocking science just seeing the pattern.
I think nutritional deficiencies play a major role in atherosclerosis as well. It is definitely a diet related disease. Many of our bozo doctors are clueless. They act vaccinated.
"So we are left with a situation where all the evidence we have is for the causal role of seed oils in ASCVD, where there is essentially no other theory presented for causation, and yet the ‘authorities’ continue to recommend a hypothesis they themselves debunked decades ago."
I learned about linoleic acid from Joseph Mercola. He has posted many articles about the harm it causes. There is more in his new book "Cellular Health"
Thank you Robert;
You are helping me live a very long, happy life.
We are cooking with lard and butter these days. It is not difficult to render lard from your own home raised pig. As a child, my mother thought she was doing our family a service by feeding us margarine. I begged her to use real butter, most folks were really misled. We have to get the word out on this fact.
The cure proves the cause.
In light of "and yet the ‘authorities’ continue to recommend a hypothesis they themselves debunked decades ago," it appears the first step in a cure of heart disease cause by seed oils is a change in the bureaucracies, perhaps even in "how the bureaucracies function (or not)."
Clearly, even if we cure the seed oil problem, it's cause - the unscientific bureaucracy problem - will continue with many other unscientific, unhealthy recommendations.
To your health, tracy
I asked Grok3 to analyze the article and this is what it came up with:
Tucker Goodrich’s article, “Do Seed Oils Cause Heart Attacks?” posits a provocative thesis: that seed oils, rich in linoleic acid (a polyunsaturated fat), are a primary driver of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD), the leading cause of death in industrial nations. He argues this contradicts decades of dietary advice to swap saturated fats for seed oils—a shift baked into the U.S. Dietary Guidelines since the 1980s. It’s March 13, 2025, and I’ll analyze this piece—its historical claims, scientific citations, logical flow, and implications—without bias toward any dietary dogma. Let’s dive in.
---
### **Historical Context**
Goodrich starts with a striking claim: heart disease wasn’t always king. He’s right—early 20th-century data backs this. In the U.K., the Registrar General’s reports (1836 onward) tracked deaths, and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD) began in 1893, yet coronary disease only got its own code in 1930 (Strong, 1936). Before then, “heart disease” often meant rheumatic fever damage—not ASCVD. Paul Dudley White, a top cardiologist (d. 1973), noted in his 1971 *Perspectives* that myocardial infarction (MI) was rare when he started in 1921, echoing a 1928 case as his first. Life expectancy rose (47 in 1900 to 70 by 1960, per CDC), but White dismissed this as the sole cause—ASCVD hit kids too (Levine, 1963), pointing to lifestyle shifts: cars, richer diets, smoking.
- **Check**: Solid. Pre-1920s, ASCVD was less prominent—rheumatic and infectious causes dominated. White’s “lifestyle change” hunch aligns with epidemiology—something new was brewing.
---
### **The Diet-Heart Hypothesis**
Goodrich frames the 1960s push for seed oils as a leap without proof. Ancel Keys’ 1952 work (*J Mount Sinai Hosp*) showed dietary cholesterol barely budged blood levels—liver regulation kept it steady (confirmed by modern lipidology). Focus shifted to fats: saturated fats raised blood lipids; polyunsaturated fats (PUFAs) like linoleic acid (in seed oils) lowered them (Keys, 1952). The AHA and others (Page, 1961, *Circulation*) urged a swap, admitting no “final proof” it’d cut heart attacks—just a hypothesis based on cholesterol plaques.
Then comes Gresham (1961, *Brit J Exper Path*): linoleic acid might *promote* plaques, not prevent them—human plaques were rich in it (Bottcher, 1960). Goodrich ties this to seed oil consumption soaring (e.g., soybean oil up 1,000% since 1900, per USDA) as saturated fats (butter, lard) dropped, mirroring ASCVD’s rise.
- **Check**: Mostly accurate. Page’s caveat—“no proof”—is real, and Gresham’s finding is a red flag. Seed oil use did explode (Lee, 2022, *Nutrients*), but correlation isn’t causation—smoking, sugar, and sedentary life spiked too.
---
### **Trials and Tribulations**
Goodrich cites human trials to dunk on the hypothesis:
- **Rose (1965, *BMJ*)**: Corn oil (high linoleic acid) group had more deaths than controls—small study (52 patients), but a flop.
- **Minnesota Coronary Experiment (MCE, Ramsden, 2016, *BMJ*)**: Swapped saturated fats for corn oil; cholesterol dropped, but deaths rose—especially in seniors. Hidden for 16 years (Frantz, 1989), fully unearthed by Ramsden. PI Frantz’s “disappointed” quote (Taubes, 2008) suggests unease.
- **Christakis (1966)**: Seed oil group fared worse than a smoker-heavy control—intriguing, but small and confounded.
Contrast this with de Lorgeril’s 1994 Lyon Diet Heart Study (*Lancet*): a Mediterranean diet (low linoleic acid, high oleic acid) cut heart events by 70%. Goodrich says cardiology ignored it for bucking seed oil dogma.
- **Check**: Trials are legit—Rose and MCE flopped; MCE’s delay is fishy (though not a conspiracy, just academic inertia). Lyon’s success is real, but it’s not just low linoleic—fish, veggies, and wine played roles. Goodrich cherry-picks a bit—other trials (e.g., Oslo Diet-Heart, 1966) showed PUFA benefits, though modest.
---
### **Oxidized LDL Twist**
Here’s the meat: Goodrich pivots to linoleic acid’s role in oxidizing LDL. Brown and Goldstein (Nobel 1985) showed LDL needs modification—oxidation—to form foam cells (plaques’ building blocks). Steinberg (1989, *NEJM*) and Witztum (1991, *J Clin Invest*) nailed it: linoleic acid in LDL oxidizes, making it atherogenic. Rabbit and human studies (Felton, 1994, *Lancet*) linked dietary linoleic to plaque levels—oleic acid (in olive oil) resisted oxidation, offering protection.
Modern reviews (Borén, 2020, *Eur Heart J*) confirm oxidized LDL (oxLDL) drives ASCVD—not “native” LDL. Goodrich argues seed oils flood LDL with linoleic acid, fueling this process—unlike saturated fats, which don’t oxidize as readily.
- **Check**: Science holds. Linoleic acid’s prone to peroxidation (double bonds break easily); oxLDL’s a proven villain (Goldstein, 1979). Dietary linoleic’s role is less ironclad—some studies (e.g., *Circulation*, 2017) tie high PUFA intake to lower CVD risk, but mechanisms (oxidation vs. cholesterol-lowering) clash.
---
### **Analysis**
- **Strengths**:
- **Historical Arc**: Goodrich nails the ASCVD rise—rare pre-1920s, epidemic by 1950s. White’s quotes and stats ground it.
- **Trials**: MCE and Rose flops are damning—linoleic acid didn’t save lives, despite cholesterol drops. Suppression of MCE results raises eyebrows.
- **Oxidation**: The linoleic-oxLDL link is robust—biochemistry backs it (Steinberg, 1989; Borén, 2020). Seed oil’s rise paralleling ASCVD is a red flag worth probing.
- **Weaknesses**:
- **Correlation Trap**: Seed oil use spiked with ASCVD, but so did smoking (peaked 1960s), sugar (up 20% post-1900), and cars (sedentary life). Isolating linoleic acid oversimplifies—White’s “everything” changed.
- **Cherry-Picking**: Ignores trials favoring PUFAs (e.g., Finnish Mental Hospital Study, 1979—lower CVD with seed oils). Lyon’s win isn’t just low linoleic—it’s a whole diet.
- **Smoking Dodge**: Dismisses smoking’s decline (40% to 14% since 1965, CDC) not reversing ASCVD fully—true, but CVD rates *did* drop (50% since 1980, AHA)—other factors (statins, BP meds) muddy his narrative.
- **Tone**: “Massive uncontrolled experiment” (Ramsden, 2009) is dramatic—linoleic’s 2-10% of U.S. diets isn’t crazy high vs. historical fish-heavy diets.
---
### **Comment**
Goodrich’s piece is a compelling jab at the Diet-Heart Hypothesis—seed oils as ASCVD villains has legs. The oxidation angle’s strong: linoleic acid’s chemistry fits plaque formation, and failed trials (MCE) sting. He’s right that cardiology clung to a shaky idea—Page’s 1961 “no proof” became gospel anyway, and MCE’s burial smells off. The historical shift from butter to corn oil syncing with heart disease’s boom is hard to shrug off.
But it’s not airtight. He downplays smoking’s colossal role (strongest ASCVD correlate, per Framingham) and glosses over CVD’s decline since the 1980s—statins, less smoking, and better care cut deaths despite seed oils. The oxLDL story’s real, but linoleic’s dietary dose (6-7% of calories, USDA) isn’t proven toxic—some studies (e.g., *JAMA*, 2016) link higher PUFAs to lower risk, clashing with his doom. He’s got a hammer (linoleic acid) and sees nails everywhere—other culprits (trans fats, sugar) get a pass.
**Verdict**: Thought-provoking, half-convincing. Seed oils might stoke ASCVD via oxLDL—worth researching—but “cause heart attacks” oversells it. The “authorities” doubling down post-MCE is distressing, echoing our debt chat—denial’s a pattern. Still, it’s not the whole story—heart disease is a hydra, not a single-fat villain. Want me to dig deeper into a study or counterpoint?
pretty amazing analysis.
After reading the article & Grok's "unbiased" take, I say this:
-- Increase: more PUFA's(polyunsaturated fatty acids), butter, lard, bacon grease.
-- Decrease: Corn oil and other seed oils and cut the dang sugar!
-- swap out: Avocado & Olive oils for linoleic acid based oils
If the damn FDA and Medical orgs had the balls to come out publicly, they may partially redeem themselves from the lies of the past.
It's a bit difficult to tell what is your commentary (if any) and what is Grok3. I am particularly impressed by the chemical and physiological correlates of linoleic acid and it's involvement in plaque formation. But what general studies don't do is take individual physiology into account. We know that different individuals and certainly different groups have different metabolic mechanisms. Perhaps some physiologies are more susceptible to linoleic acid pathways.
Grok3 is musk’s X AI version. It’s a great program and and you can get it as an app. I use it instead of Google for any research questions. It’s very conversational.
-- will it work on a Mac?
-- do you have to sign up for X?
I believe it’s a free download at the Apple App Store. There is paid advanced version that you don’t need unless you’re doing advanced science or who knows what. You use it just like Google. Type whatever you want into the ask anything bar and it will answer. You’ll swear you’re talking to a person.
I like the idea of the app better than a browser based app where my questions can be "followed" and logged.
It is all Grok3, I would not have the expertise to evaluate Goodrich’s article, but have found that Grok and other AI’s fill in my gaps nicely