I only wonder why you conflate the Gaza massacre with "real" anti-Semitism. That's an excuse that the Israeli government is using to silence their critics. Talk about crying wolf! And it's working about as well as crying wolf always does: it's creating the very anger it seems to decry.
I only wonder why you conflate the Gaza massacre with "real" anti-Semitism. That's an excuse that the Israeli government is using to silence their critics. Talk about crying wolf! And it's working about as well as crying wolf always does: it's creating the very anger it seems to decry.
10s of thousands? Hmmmm. Maybe if the kniuckledraggers quit building tunnels and arms caches in and under schools, hospitals and mosques the so called civilian casualties (our forays in Iraq and afganistan have pointed out the dubious nature of that classification) would be much lower.
You didn't ask me Daniel but I'll tell you what i think. Intentions matter. And credibility matters.
NYT and BBC have had to eat too much crow, after having accepted Hamas claims of Israeli atrocities at face value, and then later made fools when faced w/ electronic data captured by Israeli and US intelligence. BBC in particular ran multiple stories with Crisis Actor Mr. FAFO playing his many roles before they finally, finally woke up to the fact they were being duped.
On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?
The intentions of zionists have been to get rid of the palestinian people since the beginning of all of this when they took their land. Israel is an apartheid terrorist state.
Israel does what is necessary to defend itself. But does not have the aim to get rid of the Palestinian people.
Israel left Gaza in 2005. That was 18 years ago. They have not attacked civilians in Gaza during that time. Yet Gaza continues to send missiles into Israel aimed at civilian targets.
Presidents Carter and Clinton worked very hard to negotiate peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Clinton in particular had Israel ready to agree to a peace. But the Palis would just not agree. The wise-crack about those negotiations was, "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. "
Israel is NOT an apartheid state. You're lying again. Arabs peacefully live in Israel with full citizenship rights, including holding elected office in the Knesset.
It's clear, Palestinians will NEVER, EVER agree to any resolution that doesn't include the elimination of the state of Israel.
Do you disagree with that Daniel? If you do, what do you base your opinion on? What have the Palestinians ever done to show good faith toward a peaceful solution, that doesn't call for Israel to commit suicide?
I'd still like to hear your thoughts on that bit of fake funeral trickery. And Mr. FAFO. It's deception. Don't you agree?
I have to question why you're being so confrontational and rude. It's okay to have differences of opinion. I just don't happen to support genocide. And besides, I wasn't asking you the question. I was asking Robert the question. Over and out.. I hope...
We find common ground. I don't support genocide either.
I'm being confrontational b/c you make outrageous claims about Israel committing genocide and then can't back up what you're saying. At the same time, Hamas committed the most unspeakably barbaric acts on Oct 7, but that doesn't seem to bother you. There's no denying they did all those things. The Nazis had the sense to hide what they were doing in the death camps. Hamas made their own videos w/ GoPro cams. They WANTED others to see their barbarity.
A lot of young people promote idiotic ideas about this. "LGBTQ's for Hamas." These people are completely clueless about attitudes of Islamic extremists toward homosexuality. Maybe they've never seen videos of gays being thrown off of 4 story buildings while bound and blindfolded.
Have you, Daniel? Have you seen such videos? You think those are misinformation, and it never really happened, or what? Are you one of those good-hearted, well-meaning but na├Мve young people who sees some videos about injustices and jumps onboard to right the wrongs? All while ignoring, those videos are made by people who air videos of fake funerals, and starring crisis actors playing multiple roles.
Just tell us what you think about the Oct 7 atrocities. You're down with it? Hamas was right to do it b/c the Israelis had it coming? The Israelis deserved it b/c of their genocide of Palestinians?
Really Daniel, I want to know. What do you think about Palestinians' actions on Oct 7?
I haven't denied, Palestinian civilians are getting killed. Japanese civilians were killed after Pearl Harbor. Did the US go too far?
Do you want me to repeat the question I asked Daniel? What is your answer, Jon?
"On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?"
You can do better than Daniel just by providing an answer. Any answer.
"On November 30, the General Assembly held a vote on its annual call for a тАЬPeaceful settlement of the question of PalestineтАЭ, which advocates the two-state solution premised upon the applicability of international law to the conflict and the establishment of a Palestinian state along the pre-June 1967 lines (also known as the 1949 armistice lines or тАЬthe Green LineтАЭ). The result was 153 countries voting in favor, 10 abstaining, and 9 voting to reject the two-state solution, including Israel and the US. On December 19, the General Assembly held a vote on its annual reaffirmation of тАЬThe right of the Palestinian people to self-determinationтАЭ. The result was 172 countries voting in favor, 10 abstaining, and 4 voting to reject the PalestiniansтАЩ right to self-determination, including Israel and the US." Israel charged with Genocide at Int. Court of Justice - J. Hammond
The UN Secretary-General firmly rebuked what he described as the тАЬfalseтАЭ claim by top Israeli diplomats that he had sought to justify the terror attacks of 7 October by Hamas in a speech he delivered to the Security Council.
Excerpt: "Addressing TuesdayтАЩs debate in the Council on the worsening crisis in Israel and Palestine, the UN chief said that although nothing could justify the тАЬappallingтАЭ attacks by Hamas of 7 October which triggered the siege and bombardment of Gaza, it was important to recognize they тАЬdid not happen in a vacuumтАЭ and did not justify the collective punishment of Palestinians."
I never would have guessed from your answer the UNSecGen found the Hamas attacks on Israel "appalling. But then says, they тАЬdid not happen in a vacuumтАЭ and did not justify the collective punishment of Palestinians."
Your response is about his being butt-hurt b/c the Israelis accused him of justifying the terror attacks. I would not have said he justified the attacks, but he certainly did make excuses for them. Wouldn't you agree? The UN Secretary General made excuses for the attacks?
Getting back to the question I asked, there's no denying Hamas carried out a barbaric exceptionally inhumane attack on civilians. Why didn't the UN condemn Hamas?
Wasn't it the vaunted UNITED NATIONS who after WWII ended, VOTED to give the Jewish people a tiny slice of land in what had been Jewish land a couple thousand years ago?
The UN discussed it and I'm not sure there was an overwhelming agreement, but Truman was on board which I believe paved the way. The Brits had control of that area after WWII.
The UN, even at that time, I'm sure was planning ways to devise future conflicts and a state of Israel would be one way.
The western nations set up the state of Israel, the Uk having a the lead role apparently. Maybe some of the blame, so to speak, for the 'Palestinian' situation there is the lack of follow-through of the west to provide for a state or territory for non -Jews. The non-Jews started fighting the jews immediately and the hatred has grown out of proportion to the point of the Palestinians teaching this hatred to all their children. How would you expect the younger generations to act toward the Jews?
While all that is true, it did not start there. After the Ottoman empire was defeated, the Brits assumed control of Palestine and under the Balfour Declaration in 1917 intended to open a national home for the Jewish people there. In 1922 the League of Nations told Britain to facilitate and encourage Jewish immigration and settlement on the land. The Arabs increased their attacks on the Jews that were already there and that is when, in 1936, a commission recommended partitioning the country. The Arabs rejected the idea and the Jews accepted the principle of partition. Britain established immigration restrictions on the Jews. After WWII the Brits turned the issue over to the UN after turning away many ships of Jewish refugees. It two, recommended a partition into two states. Same response, okay Jews no deal Arabs. The state of Israel was established and Jewish immigration was unimpeded.
I have an interest in this only because I believe there became two sets of тАШJewishтАЩ people. Those descending from Jacob (Israel) and those descending from Esau (Edom). Many Rabbis acknowledge this. They say Esau was rejected by God in favor of Israel. They have taken it further and associated Esau with Rome and Christianity. I, on the other hand, reverse that and add that the Edomites, although Hebrew, are not Jews, which was a term used very late in the telling, and originally was only associated with the progeny of Judah of Judea, one of Israel's sons, i.e. the Israelites. The Jewish people of Judea do not have a problem with the Arabs. The Edomites traveled far and wide given the rocky Mount Seir had offered little. They were the ones dispersed throughout the world.
Thank you for expanding on this for me. I comment now and then to people about this conflict going back to Abraham, but I run across an occasional person who doesn't see it that way at all and believe it is all the Jews' fault.
We did - our State Dept pushed hard to stop it while Russia was for it. Truman, against their advice, made the US the first to recognized the new State and was followed by the U.S.S.R. who I believe had perhaps millions of Jews in their country, they still do.
Lets not forget that an obscure state department EMPLOYEE - Alger Hiss - who just happened to (also) be a member of the CPUSA and an active Soviet agent, was instrumental in formulating the Charter (of) the soon to be "United Nations"; or that Alger Hiss was the "1st secretary" of the fledgling UN at its 1st meeting in San Francisco; or that he 'rigged' the UN Charter giving the U.S.S.R., (2) votes in the UN Security Council; or that Hiss was finally convicted (via the evidence provided by another "American" Communist - Whittaker Chambers - former editor of TIME Magazine) - and spent a few years in a U.S. penitentiary. (WAY TOO FEW).
The Bible is replete with stories of the Philistines attacking the Israelites. King DavidтАЩs youthful encounter with Goliath, a mighty Philistine warrior, is but one of these examples. Goliath lived in Gath, which is now part of Gaza. Gaza is mentioned in the Bible as one of the Philistine cities.
During the Roman Empire, this region was renamed to тАЬPalaestinaтАЭ following the Bar Kokhba revolt to punish the Jews with the name of their enemies. Emperor Hadrian renamed the land for the JewsтАЩ archenemies, the Philistines.
But Jews remained in the land until the rebirth of Israel in May 1948. The small and scattered population of Arabs identified as Ottomans before 1917. When the entire empire collapsed, they identified as Arabs, not Palestinians. The creation of Palestinian identity only began in the 1960s with the rise of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), which was a terrorist group.
Fuck the Bible. Israel is dropping 200 pound bombs on children. I donтАЩt condone HamasтАЩ killing of civilians but what Israel is doing in retaliation is barbaric. And many believe their goal is to implement an agenda which existed long before the Hamas attack, to establish тАЬGreater IsraelтАЭ and reduce the population of Palestinians in it so Jews constitute a majority. Please watch Glenn Greenwald: https://rumble.com/v42tfen-system-update-204.html
Forgive me but it's just not as simple as that. The military operation by hamas on october seventh was an opportunity for me to find out more about israel and the conflicts over there. What I found out completely changed my mind about israel. It's not too hard to find that information... if you want to.
That's true. It is never hard to find out more (opinions or twisted fact). Have you seen the maps depicting that area in ancient times? Did you find out that the Arabs did not have a religion until after the Christians had formed large areas throughout the Middle East and Europe? That one Arab in particular was responsible for gathering the momentum to invent a religion to eventually remove the Christians, which they successfully did and forced the Muslim religion on every country in Asia and the Middle East on penalty of death if they did not convert?
History has been re-written so many times by later generations that only those that use the writing found at the time can make any truthful statements. Post 1960 shows two sides to the coin of this area and longstanding hatred for the Jews by all peoples makes it easy to side with the haters.
I just read Charles Eisenstein's substack "Friends Don't Let Friends Destroy Themselves" If you read it, what do you think? He is a philosopher and advisor to RFKJr.
I have to admit, if someone led me to believe they would inflict death or harm to my person and I had my lethal weapon available I would believe myself justified and would use it. More recently many US jurisdictions are agreeing this is a justified right. So, IMO if one doesn't want a lethal response don't initiate a lethal attack. As for those collateral, be wise and do not associate with (leave) those who disregard your wellbeing or overthrow their leadership.
See? Here we go "tens of thousands slaughtered"? Have you really looked up the numbers? How many killed are Hamas members? How many civilians. How many are active supporters of Hamas?
Daniel - those innocent civilians living in Gaza were willing participants. Liken them to the Germans living in Nazi Germany during WWII. Those who saw the writing on the wall tried to get out. These people who stayed supported the slaughter of Israeli civilians. Indisputable.
I'm afraid that's not how it is you've been listening to the news. If you're more widely read I think you'll understand by searching out. What is really going on over there. Thank you.
I've read several of your posts here Daniel. Do you really not see how lame they are? You're telling everyone you're right, and they're all wrong. But you don't tell them what they're wrong about. Nor do you provide any of the facts you found so persuasive.
You're telling people, "Do your own searches. Then you'll see what I see. "
You think we're all blank sheets of paper, and we haven't seen any information before now?
I'm asking now for the 4th time, what did you think about Palestinians' barbaric atrocities against women and children on Oct 7?
The fact you won't answer is itself an answer to the question.
What's your point? FJB said something one day, and recanted the next? Happens all the time. Hardly newsworthy
Anne, I have a couple of responses at hand. But first I want to know, do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not? A yes or no will do.
IтАЩve heard the reported atrocities committed against children by Hamas are lies. ThereтАЩs obviously a lot of disinformation and propaganda about what happened on Oct. 7th and what continues to happen. ItтАЩs hard to know what to believe. I wonder why your so confident about your views on this issue?
In every war both sides heavily deploy propaganda. They use emotion, outrage and empathy, to draw people to their тАШside'. There will be little truth and even less actual information about the reasons behind the conflict.
Lots of propaganda, Hamas committed crimes, they are terrorists, but lots of photoshopping going on too. In 1947 Israel had about 7% of the land, not enough for the great influx of Jews. The Arabs and Jews got along until the poison of Zionist ideology.
The NYT's reporting has been antagonistic toward Israel not just since Oct 7, but long before. I discount it's reporting heavily. However, given it's past biases, this article is credible:
A couple of excerpts follow. They are a small fraction of what was reported. Hope you have a strong stomach.
Same comment as to that little weasel Daniel. He was too cowardly to share his thoughts. I really do want to know what you think, Anne. What do you think it would be like to go through what these women went through? And what kind of animal would do what the Palestinians did? One last question- do you think the NYT's reporting is true? Or greatly exaggerated?
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. AbdushтАЩs тАФ legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
The Times viewed photographs of one womanтАЩs corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.
She said she then watched another woman тАЬshredded into pieces.тАЭ While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.
тАЬOne continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the road,тАЭ Sapir said.
She said the men sliced her face and then the woman fell out of view. Around the same time, she said, she saw three other women raped and terrorists carrying the severed heads of three more women.
тАЬBidenтАЩs claims were featured on the front pages of Western newspapers, and reports of beheaded babies have been cited in some quarters as justification for revenge attacks and the collective punishment of civilians in Gaza.
тАЬThe Israeli army has said that it cannot confirm the claims, which were repeated on Wednesday by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin NetanyahuтАЩs spokesperson Tal Heinrich.тАЭ
So, the Israeli army cannot confirm the claims. ItтАЩs not just a matter of Biden walking back something he said.
I don't know if the claims of atrocities on children are true or not. If I had to bet money, I'd bet they're true. The reporting in the NYT article in my other response to you makes it completely credible. Don't you think?
How old are you? Old enough to have been alive and remember 9-11? If not, would you believe me if I told you, in the days after, there were videos of dozens of people who had jumped from the towers to their deaths. The flames were to hot to bear. You see them as they fall to their certain death, and wonder, what were they thinking in those last moments? They don't show those anymore. It would be in bad taste, I guess.
Videos of the human remains found following Oct 7 have not been released to the public for the same reason. There have been a numerous reports on people who have viewed them. They generally say they get choked up, and are traumatized by what they saw. I have zero respect for Chris Cuomo. If even he is shocked by what he saw in the videos, it must be horrific.
Maybe these Oct 7 atrocities are all fabricated. Horrid videos created by AI, or something. There are too many signs, they're real. In the immediate aftermath of Oct 7, there were videos of Palis - their own videos - driving down the road and shooting pedestrians on the side of the road or people in other cars. On the other side of it, Hamas claimed an Israeli missile hit a hospital and killed 500 people. The NY Times repeated their claim w/o corroborating. Israeli and US military provided electronic warfare data to NYT, and they had to "add context" to the reporting ( a euphemism for correcting a false story). It was a Hamas missile that had gone off course, not Israeli. It hit a parking lot, not a hospital. It may or may not have killed some people, but almost certainly not 500.
NYT is to blame, but Hamas originated the lie. Disinformation is their stock-in-trade.
Anne, what do you think about the fake funeral video?
I don't automatically believe everything that comes from the Israelis either. But the Hamas agitprop is so ham-handed, it entirely destroys their credibility.
It *should* be common knowledge by now, if anyone learned from history, that the phrase "the fog of war" is rather apt, and lies and propaganda are invented by those wishing to manipulate the people into launching or supporting war. Recall the famous lie that was used to get the US into the Gulf War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Even if the lies are later shown to be lies, the damage is done, and many don't even hear about the retractions.
You ask: "... do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?"
I have a question, too. Have you never heard of a LIHOP? Don't you think Bibi, who was in deep legal trouble at the time, is the kind of person who would be willing to have some Israelis sacrificed in order to use that excuse to genocide (erase completely from Gaza) 2.2 million Palestinians? Let me ask YOU a question. How many Jews were killed by Hamas in early October? For each Jew killed by Hamas (and we now know that some were killed by Israeli soldiers, per the Israeli survivors), how many Palestinian women and children do you believe should be murdered or starved to death in revenge? Or kicked out of their homes and sent to tent cities in Sinai?
First, I don't believe any Palestinian women and children should be murdered or starved to death.
You didn't answer the question- do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?
I do not believe Israel has committed atrocities against the Palestinians. They know they are under the microscope. They are aware there are plenty of critics who want to find reasons to get them to stop their destruction of Hamas.
That's not to say there hasn't been collateral harm to Pali civilians as the IDF wages war against Hamas, who is using civilians as human shields. But I do believe Israel genuinely works hard to minimize such harm.
"Another Israeli Channel 12 report profiled a soldier who said she was ordered to open fire on homes in kibbutz Holit whether there were civilians inside or not. Indeed, ten Israelis were killed in Holit."
"Two months after the events of October 7, shocking new testimony reveals that the Israeli military, using an arsenal of gunfire, tank shelling and guided LAU missiles, killed almost certainly all but one of the 14 hostages held in a house in kibbutz BeтАЩeri тАУ along with their Hamas captors.
The testimony, published by Israel's Channel 12, was delivered by the sole survivor from the massacre inside one house, Hadas Dagan, a resident of BeтАЩeri who had previously maintained her silence."
I've already acknowledged Israel has killed it's own people, in a response to Daniel, above, copied & pasted here:
'"On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?"
Daniel pussied out and didn't answer the question. How about you give it a try. Do intentions matter, Moonspinner?
Oh, sure, these Palestinian infants and children are "willing participants". You state that it's "indisputable" that these infants and children support the "slaughter of Israeli civilians." These are the infants and children growing up in an open-air prison, being called "animals" by Zionists.
You mention Nazi Germany during WWII. Would you have agreed that any Russian or American soldiers had a right to murder or starve infants and children of Germans who were still living in Germany when the Allies arrived toward the end of the war? Those infants and children stayed in Germany, so is it "indisputable" that they supported the Nazis, and so it's perfectly fine to kill them or starve them to death?
And who is going to financially support these starving Palestinians to leave their open-air prison, where they have been oppressed by Israeli soldiers?
Where can they go? Bibi is planning to force any left alive after the genocide to "tent cities" in northern Sinai. But you, in all your decency, would rather these children murdered or slowly starved to death in their homes? Is it any wonder that orthodox Jews do not support the Zionist agenda and are against the genocide of the Palestinians?
Antisemitism is a thing but realizing that Israel is committing genocide on the Palestinians is not an antisemitic position, it would be condemned no matter the nation's religion. Jeremy Hammond is a reputable resource on the issue in my humble opinion.
I only wonder why you conflate the Gaza massacre with "real" anti-Semitism. That's an excuse that the Israeli government is using to silence their critics. Talk about crying wolf! And it's working about as well as crying wolf always does: it's creating the very anger it seems to decry.
You misunderstand my point. After gaza, the depth and breadth of the underlying true antisemitism that already existed was revealed
People are so bent up over gaza that it can be difficult for them to not force points of view to fit their internal framing
What do you think of the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians in gaza?
10s of thousands? Hmmmm. Maybe if the kniuckledraggers quit building tunnels and arms caches in and under schools, hospitals and mosques the so called civilian casualties (our forays in Iraq and afganistan have pointed out the dubious nature of that classification) would be much lower.
Yes tens of thousands mostly children and women
And do not forget all those puppies and kittens
Animals? Yes! Is this how you get out of bed in the morning?
https://t.me/BlazenAnimals/23821
Is this how you get something down you need?
https://t.me/BlazenAnimals/25678
That is soooooooo how i pictured Michael waking up in the morning
Michael,
21,600 deaths last i heard on the world news channel.
I doubt the numbers are accurate, as news channels tend to bullshit a lot. Most likely the fodder level is much higher
https://rumble.com/v42tfen-system-update-204.html
You didn't ask me Daniel but I'll tell you what i think. Intentions matter. And credibility matters.
NYT and BBC have had to eat too much crow, after having accepted Hamas claims of Israeli atrocities at face value, and then later made fools when faced w/ electronic data captured by Israeli and US intelligence. BBC in particular ran multiple stories with Crisis Actor Mr. FAFO playing his many roles before they finally, finally woke up to the fact they were being duped.
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23MrFAFO&src=typed_query
Daniel, do you want to tell us what's going on here?:
https://twitter.com/joyy_ky/status/1720649186075459690
On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?
The intentions of zionists have been to get rid of the palestinian people since the beginning of all of this when they took their land. Israel is an apartheid terrorist state.
I'm calling bullshit Daniel.
Israel does what is necessary to defend itself. But does not have the aim to get rid of the Palestinian people.
Israel left Gaza in 2005. That was 18 years ago. They have not attacked civilians in Gaza during that time. Yet Gaza continues to send missiles into Israel aimed at civilian targets.
Presidents Carter and Clinton worked very hard to negotiate peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Clinton in particular had Israel ready to agree to a peace. But the Palis would just not agree. The wise-crack about those negotiations was, "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. "
Israel is NOT an apartheid state. You're lying again. Arabs peacefully live in Israel with full citizenship rights, including holding elected office in the Knesset.
It's clear, Palestinians will NEVER, EVER agree to any resolution that doesn't include the elimination of the state of Israel.
Do you disagree with that Daniel? If you do, what do you base your opinion on? What have the Palestinians ever done to show good faith toward a peaceful solution, that doesn't call for Israel to commit suicide?
I'd still like to hear your thoughts on that bit of fake funeral trickery. And Mr. FAFO. It's deception. Don't you agree?
It's sad to be so entrenched in opinion
I'll take facts over opinions any day. Useful idiots or willfull blindness is what you get with opinions such as this.
Yes, I'm firm in my opinion. Not entrenched.
You haven't said anything to cause me to change my mind. I seriously doubt you've changed anyone else's.
Get back to us when you can present some facts to support what you're saying.
I have to question why you're being so confrontational and rude. It's okay to have differences of opinion. I just don't happen to support genocide. And besides, I wasn't asking you the question. I was asking Robert the question. Over and out.. I hope...
We find common ground. I don't support genocide either.
I'm being confrontational b/c you make outrageous claims about Israel committing genocide and then can't back up what you're saying. At the same time, Hamas committed the most unspeakably barbaric acts on Oct 7, but that doesn't seem to bother you. There's no denying they did all those things. The Nazis had the sense to hide what they were doing in the death camps. Hamas made their own videos w/ GoPro cams. They WANTED others to see their barbarity.
A lot of young people promote idiotic ideas about this. "LGBTQ's for Hamas." These people are completely clueless about attitudes of Islamic extremists toward homosexuality. Maybe they've never seen videos of gays being thrown off of 4 story buildings while bound and blindfolded.
Have you, Daniel? Have you seen such videos? You think those are misinformation, and it never really happened, or what? Are you one of those good-hearted, well-meaning but na├Мve young people who sees some videos about injustices and jumps onboard to right the wrongs? All while ignoring, those videos are made by people who air videos of fake funerals, and starring crisis actors playing multiple roles.
Just tell us what you think about the Oct 7 atrocities. You're down with it? Hamas was right to do it b/c the Israelis had it coming? The Israelis deserved it b/c of their genocide of Palestinians?
Really Daniel, I want to know. What do you think about Palestinians' actions on Oct 7?
https://rumble.com/v42tfen-system-update-204.html
What are you trying to say?
I haven't denied, Palestinian civilians are getting killed. Japanese civilians were killed after Pearl Harbor. Did the US go too far?
Do you want me to repeat the question I asked Daniel? What is your answer, Jon?
"On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?"
You can do better than Daniel just by providing an answer. Any answer.
"On November 30, the General Assembly held a vote on its annual call for a тАЬPeaceful settlement of the question of PalestineтАЭ, which advocates the two-state solution premised upon the applicability of international law to the conflict and the establishment of a Palestinian state along the pre-June 1967 lines (also known as the 1949 armistice lines or тАЬthe Green LineтАЭ). The result was 153 countries voting in favor, 10 abstaining, and 9 voting to reject the two-state solution, including Israel and the US. On December 19, the General Assembly held a vote on its annual reaffirmation of тАЬThe right of the Palestinian people to self-determinationтАЭ. The result was 172 countries voting in favor, 10 abstaining, and 4 voting to reject the PalestiniansтАЩ right to self-determination, including Israel and the US." Israel charged with Genocide at Int. Court of Justice - J. Hammond
Margaret, serious question- what is the explanation for the UN failing to condemn the Palestinians' Oct 7 atrocities, but condemning Israel?
My Word: The UNтАЩs jokes, tricks and disasters
The UN General Assembly passed no fewer than 15 resolutions targeting the Jewish state in 2022 тАУ compared to 13 on the rest of the world combined.
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-724396
After failing to condemn Hamas terror group, UN adopts eight resolutions condemning Jewish state
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-failing-to-condemn-hamas-terror-group-un-adopts-eight-resolutions-condemning-jewish-state/ar-AA1jJau2
The UN Secretary-General firmly rebuked what he described as the тАЬfalseтАЭ claim by top Israeli diplomats that he had sought to justify the terror attacks of 7 October by Hamas in a speech he delivered to the Security Council.
Margaret, You evaded the question.
http://tinyurl.com/yfvjd3ky
Excerpt: "Addressing TuesdayтАЩs debate in the Council on the worsening crisis in Israel and Palestine, the UN chief said that although nothing could justify the тАЬappallingтАЭ attacks by Hamas of 7 October which triggered the siege and bombardment of Gaza, it was important to recognize they тАЬdid not happen in a vacuumтАЭ and did not justify the collective punishment of Palestinians."
I never would have guessed from your answer the UNSecGen found the Hamas attacks on Israel "appalling. But then says, they тАЬdid not happen in a vacuumтАЭ and did not justify the collective punishment of Palestinians."
Your response is about his being butt-hurt b/c the Israelis accused him of justifying the terror attacks. I would not have said he justified the attacks, but he certainly did make excuses for them. Wouldn't you agree? The UN Secretary General made excuses for the attacks?
Getting back to the question I asked, there's no denying Hamas carried out a barbaric exceptionally inhumane attack on civilians. Why didn't the UN condemn Hamas?
Wasn't it the vaunted UNITED NATIONS who after WWII ended, VOTED to give the Jewish people a tiny slice of land in what had been Jewish land a couple thousand years ago?
The UN discussed it and I'm not sure there was an overwhelming agreement, but Truman was on board which I believe paved the way. The Brits had control of that area after WWII.
The UN, even at that time, I'm sure was planning ways to devise future conflicts and a state of Israel would be one way.
The western nations set up the state of Israel, the Uk having a the lead role apparently. Maybe some of the blame, so to speak, for the 'Palestinian' situation there is the lack of follow-through of the west to provide for a state or territory for non -Jews. The non-Jews started fighting the jews immediately and the hatred has grown out of proportion to the point of the Palestinians teaching this hatred to all their children. How would you expect the younger generations to act toward the Jews?
While all that is true, it did not start there. After the Ottoman empire was defeated, the Brits assumed control of Palestine and under the Balfour Declaration in 1917 intended to open a national home for the Jewish people there. In 1922 the League of Nations told Britain to facilitate and encourage Jewish immigration and settlement on the land. The Arabs increased their attacks on the Jews that were already there and that is when, in 1936, a commission recommended partitioning the country. The Arabs rejected the idea and the Jews accepted the principle of partition. Britain established immigration restrictions on the Jews. After WWII the Brits turned the issue over to the UN after turning away many ships of Jewish refugees. It two, recommended a partition into two states. Same response, okay Jews no deal Arabs. The state of Israel was established and Jewish immigration was unimpeded.
I have an interest in this only because I believe there became two sets of тАШJewishтАЩ people. Those descending from Jacob (Israel) and those descending from Esau (Edom). Many Rabbis acknowledge this. They say Esau was rejected by God in favor of Israel. They have taken it further and associated Esau with Rome and Christianity. I, on the other hand, reverse that and add that the Edomites, although Hebrew, are not Jews, which was a term used very late in the telling, and originally was only associated with the progeny of Judah of Judea, one of Israel's sons, i.e. the Israelites. The Jewish people of Judea do not have a problem with the Arabs. The Edomites traveled far and wide given the rocky Mount Seir had offered little. They were the ones dispersed throughout the world.
Thank you for expanding on this for me. I comment now and then to people about this conflict going back to Abraham, but I run across an occasional person who doesn't see it that way at all and believe it is all the Jews' fault.
The client King Herod was an Edomite. He also, apparently, destroyed the ancestry records of the Jews.
I have a different memory. We actually opposed but ussr pushed hard for it seeking an open door into the Middle East.
We did - our State Dept pushed hard to stop it while Russia was for it. Truman, against their advice, made the US the first to recognized the new State and was followed by the U.S.S.R. who I believe had perhaps millions of Jews in their country, they still do.
Lets not forget that an obscure state department EMPLOYEE - Alger Hiss - who just happened to (also) be a member of the CPUSA and an active Soviet agent, was instrumental in formulating the Charter (of) the soon to be "United Nations"; or that Alger Hiss was the "1st secretary" of the fledgling UN at its 1st meeting in San Francisco; or that he 'rigged' the UN Charter giving the U.S.S.R., (2) votes in the UN Security Council; or that Hiss was finally convicted (via the evidence provided by another "American" Communist - Whittaker Chambers - former editor of TIME Magazine) - and spent a few years in a U.S. penitentiary. (WAY TOO FEW).
The Bible is replete with stories of the Philistines attacking the Israelites. King DavidтАЩs youthful encounter with Goliath, a mighty Philistine warrior, is but one of these examples. Goliath lived in Gath, which is now part of Gaza. Gaza is mentioned in the Bible as one of the Philistine cities.
During the Roman Empire, this region was renamed to тАЬPalaestinaтАЭ following the Bar Kokhba revolt to punish the Jews with the name of their enemies. Emperor Hadrian renamed the land for the JewsтАЩ archenemies, the Philistines.
But Jews remained in the land until the rebirth of Israel in May 1948. The small and scattered population of Arabs identified as Ottomans before 1917. When the entire empire collapsed, they identified as Arabs, not Palestinians. The creation of Palestinian identity only began in the 1960s with the rise of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), which was a terrorist group.
Fuck the Bible. Israel is dropping 200 pound bombs on children. I donтАЩt condone HamasтАЩ killing of civilians but what Israel is doing in retaliation is barbaric. And many believe their goal is to implement an agenda which existed long before the Hamas attack, to establish тАЬGreater IsraelтАЭ and reduce the population of Palestinians in it so Jews constitute a majority. Please watch Glenn Greenwald: https://rumble.com/v42tfen-system-update-204.html
I agree!
Forgive me but it's just not as simple as that. The military operation by hamas on october seventh was an opportunity for me to find out more about israel and the conflicts over there. What I found out completely changed my mind about israel. It's not too hard to find that information... if you want to.
That's true. It is never hard to find out more (opinions or twisted fact). Have you seen the maps depicting that area in ancient times? Did you find out that the Arabs did not have a religion until after the Christians had formed large areas throughout the Middle East and Europe? That one Arab in particular was responsible for gathering the momentum to invent a religion to eventually remove the Christians, which they successfully did and forced the Muslim religion on every country in Asia and the Middle East on penalty of death if they did not convert?
History has been re-written so many times by later generations that only those that use the writing found at the time can make any truthful statements. Post 1960 shows two sides to the coin of this area and longstanding hatred for the Jews by all peoples makes it easy to side with the haters.
None of this divulges what I think.
I just read Charles Eisenstein's substack "Friends Don't Let Friends Destroy Themselves" If you read it, what do you think? He is a philosopher and advisor to RFKJr.
Exactly!
I have to admit, if someone led me to believe they would inflict death or harm to my person and I had my lethal weapon available I would believe myself justified and would use it. More recently many US jurisdictions are agreeing this is a justified right. So, IMO if one doesn't want a lethal response don't initiate a lethal attack. As for those collateral, be wise and do not associate with (leave) those who disregard your wellbeing or overthrow their leadership.
If you don't want a lethal attack, don't stick someone in a concentration camp for decades
See? Here we go "tens of thousands slaughtered"? Have you really looked up the numbers? How many killed are Hamas members? How many civilians. How many are active supporters of Hamas?
Daniel - those innocent civilians living in Gaza were willing participants. Liken them to the Germans living in Nazi Germany during WWII. Those who saw the writing on the wall tried to get out. These people who stayed supported the slaughter of Israeli civilians. Indisputable.
I'm afraid that's not how it is you've been listening to the news. If you're more widely read I think you'll understand by searching out. What is really going on over there. Thank you.
I've read several of your posts here Daniel. Do you really not see how lame they are? You're telling everyone you're right, and they're all wrong. But you don't tell them what they're wrong about. Nor do you provide any of the facts you found so persuasive.
You're telling people, "Do your own searches. Then you'll see what I see. "
You think we're all blank sheets of paper, and we haven't seen any information before now?
I'm asking now for the 4th time, what did you think about Palestinians' barbaric atrocities against women and children on Oct 7?
The fact you won't answer is itself an answer to the question.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas
What's your point? FJB said something one day, and recanted the next? Happens all the time. Hardly newsworthy
Anne, I have a couple of responses at hand. But first I want to know, do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not? A yes or no will do.
IтАЩve heard the reported atrocities committed against children by Hamas are lies. ThereтАЩs obviously a lot of disinformation and propaganda about what happened on Oct. 7th and what continues to happen. ItтАЩs hard to know what to believe. I wonder why your so confident about your views on this issue?
In every war both sides heavily deploy propaganda. They use emotion, outrage and empathy, to draw people to their тАШside'. There will be little truth and even less actual information about the reasons behind the conflict.
Lots of propaganda, Hamas committed crimes, they are terrorists, but lots of photoshopping going on too. In 1947 Israel had about 7% of the land, not enough for the great influx of Jews. The Arabs and Jews got along until the poison of Zionist ideology.
The NYT's reporting has been antagonistic toward Israel not just since Oct 7, but long before. I discount it's reporting heavily. However, given it's past biases, this article is credible:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Jk0.OARC.DwsHmGcWmtRr&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
A couple of excerpts follow. They are a small fraction of what was reported. Hope you have a strong stomach.
Same comment as to that little weasel Daniel. He was too cowardly to share his thoughts. I really do want to know what you think, Anne. What do you think it would be like to go through what these women went through? And what kind of animal would do what the Palestinians did? One last question- do you think the NYT's reporting is true? Or greatly exaggerated?
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. AbdushтАЩs тАФ legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
The Times viewed photographs of one womanтАЩs corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.
She said she then watched another woman тАЬshredded into pieces.тАЭ While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.
тАЬOne continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the road,тАЭ Sapir said.
She said the men sliced her face and then the woman fell out of view. Around the same time, she said, she saw three other women raped and terrorists carrying the severed heads of three more women.
From the article:
тАЬBidenтАЩs claims were featured on the front pages of Western newspapers, and reports of beheaded babies have been cited in some quarters as justification for revenge attacks and the collective punishment of civilians in Gaza.
тАЬThe Israeli army has said that it cannot confirm the claims, which were repeated on Wednesday by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin NetanyahuтАЩs spokesperson Tal Heinrich.тАЭ
So, the Israeli army cannot confirm the claims. ItтАЩs not just a matter of Biden walking back something he said.
That stuff you posted is several weeks old.
I don't know if the claims of atrocities on children are true or not. If I had to bet money, I'd bet they're true. The reporting in the NYT article in my other response to you makes it completely credible. Don't you think?
How old are you? Old enough to have been alive and remember 9-11? If not, would you believe me if I told you, in the days after, there were videos of dozens of people who had jumped from the towers to their deaths. The flames were to hot to bear. You see them as they fall to their certain death, and wonder, what were they thinking in those last moments? They don't show those anymore. It would be in bad taste, I guess.
Videos of the human remains found following Oct 7 have not been released to the public for the same reason. There have been a numerous reports on people who have viewed them. They generally say they get choked up, and are traumatized by what they saw. I have zero respect for Chris Cuomo. If even he is shocked by what he saw in the videos, it must be horrific.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/chris-cuomo-after-seeing-film-of-what-hamas-did-on-october-7-israel-is-doing-far-less-than-it-could
http://tinyurl.com/2xm9mzv9
What do you think about it, Anne?
Maybe these Oct 7 atrocities are all fabricated. Horrid videos created by AI, or something. There are too many signs, they're real. In the immediate aftermath of Oct 7, there were videos of Palis - their own videos - driving down the road and shooting pedestrians on the side of the road or people in other cars. On the other side of it, Hamas claimed an Israeli missile hit a hospital and killed 500 people. The NY Times repeated their claim w/o corroborating. Israeli and US military provided electronic warfare data to NYT, and they had to "add context" to the reporting ( a euphemism for correcting a false story). It was a Hamas missile that had gone off course, not Israeli. It hit a parking lot, not a hospital. It may or may not have killed some people, but almost certainly not 500.
NYT is to blame, but Hamas originated the lie. Disinformation is their stock-in-trade.
Anne, what do you think about the fake funeral video?
https://twitter.com/joyy_ky/status/1720649186075459690
And how about Mr. FAFO- dying warrior one day, life-saving medical technician the next:
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23MrFAFO&src=typed_query
I don't automatically believe everything that comes from the Israelis either. But the Hamas agitprop is so ham-handed, it entirely destroys their credibility.
It *should* be common knowledge by now, if anyone learned from history, that the phrase "the fog of war" is rather apt, and lies and propaganda are invented by those wishing to manipulate the people into launching or supporting war. Recall the famous lie that was used to get the US into the Gulf War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Even if the lies are later shown to be lies, the damage is done, and many don't even hear about the retractions.
You ask: "... do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?"
I have a question, too. Have you never heard of a LIHOP? Don't you think Bibi, who was in deep legal trouble at the time, is the kind of person who would be willing to have some Israelis sacrificed in order to use that excuse to genocide (erase completely from Gaza) 2.2 million Palestinians? Let me ask YOU a question. How many Jews were killed by Hamas in early October? For each Jew killed by Hamas (and we now know that some were killed by Israeli soldiers, per the Israeli survivors), how many Palestinian women and children do you believe should be murdered or starved to death in revenge? Or kicked out of their homes and sent to tent cities in Sinai?
First, I don't believe any Palestinian women and children should be murdered or starved to death.
You didn't answer the question- do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?
I do not believe Israel has committed atrocities against the Palestinians. They know they are under the microscope. They are aware there are plenty of critics who want to find reasons to get them to stop their destruction of Hamas.
That's not to say there hasn't been collateral harm to Pali civilians as the IDF wages war against Hamas, who is using civilians as human shields. But I do believe Israel genuinely works hard to minimize such harm.
Rather like intentional "friendly fire" --
"Another Israeli Channel 12 report profiled a soldier who said she was ordered to open fire on homes in kibbutz Holit whether there were civilians inside or not. Indeed, ten Israelis were killed in Holit."
https://azradale.substack.com/p/more-details-of-israeli-mass-hannibal
"Two months after the events of October 7, shocking new testimony reveals that the Israeli military, using an arsenal of gunfire, tank shelling and guided LAU missiles, killed almost certainly all but one of the 14 hostages held in a house in kibbutz BeтАЩeri тАУ along with their Hamas captors.
The testimony, published by Israel's Channel 12, was delivered by the sole survivor from the massacre inside one house, Hadas Dagan, a resident of BeтАЩeri who had previously maintained her silence."
You're late to the party again.
I've already acknowledged Israel has killed it's own people, in a response to Daniel, above, copied & pasted here:
'"On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?"
Daniel pussied out and didn't answer the question. How about you give it a try. Do intentions matter, Moonspinner?
Oh, sure, these Palestinian infants and children are "willing participants". You state that it's "indisputable" that these infants and children support the "slaughter of Israeli civilians." These are the infants and children growing up in an open-air prison, being called "animals" by Zionists.
You mention Nazi Germany during WWII. Would you have agreed that any Russian or American soldiers had a right to murder or starve infants and children of Germans who were still living in Germany when the Allies arrived toward the end of the war? Those infants and children stayed in Germany, so is it "indisputable" that they supported the Nazis, and so it's perfectly fine to kill them or starve them to death?
https://azradale.substack.com/p/gaza-starves-as-death-toll-climbs
And who is going to financially support these starving Palestinians to leave their open-air prison, where they have been oppressed by Israeli soldiers?
https://www.sott.net/article/484516-From-humiliation-to-rape-The-untold-story-of-Israels-abuse-of-Palestinian-women?ysclid=lqubmt75l2732157292
Where can they go? Bibi is planning to force any left alive after the genocide to "tent cities" in northern Sinai. But you, in all your decency, would rather these children murdered or slowly starved to death in their homes? Is it any wonder that orthodox Jews do not support the Zionist agenda and are against the genocide of the Palestinians?
I agree with you.
Genocide, and South Africa and many other countries see the truth of that also.
ToucheтАЩ!
Antisemitism is a thing but realizing that Israel is committing genocide on the Palestinians is not an antisemitic position, it would be condemned no matter the nation's religion. Jeremy Hammond is a reputable resource on the issue in my humble opinion.