You didn't ask me Daniel but I'll tell you what i think. Intentions matter. And credibility matters.
NYT and BBC have had to eat too much crow, after having accepted Hamas claims of Israeli atrocities at face value, and then later made fools when faced w/ electronic data captured by Israeli and US intelligence. BBC in particular ran multi…
You didn't ask me Daniel but I'll tell you what i think. Intentions matter. And credibility matters.
NYT and BBC have had to eat too much crow, after having accepted Hamas claims of Israeli atrocities at face value, and then later made fools when faced w/ electronic data captured by Israeli and US intelligence. BBC in particular ran multiple stories with Crisis Actor Mr. FAFO playing his many roles before they finally, finally woke up to the fact they were being duped.
On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?
The intentions of zionists have been to get rid of the palestinian people since the beginning of all of this when they took their land. Israel is an apartheid terrorist state.
Israel does what is necessary to defend itself. But does not have the aim to get rid of the Palestinian people.
Israel left Gaza in 2005. That was 18 years ago. They have not attacked civilians in Gaza during that time. Yet Gaza continues to send missiles into Israel aimed at civilian targets.
Presidents Carter and Clinton worked very hard to negotiate peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Clinton in particular had Israel ready to agree to a peace. But the Palis would just not agree. The wise-crack about those negotiations was, "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. "
Israel is NOT an apartheid state. You're lying again. Arabs peacefully live in Israel with full citizenship rights, including holding elected office in the Knesset.
It's clear, Palestinians will NEVER, EVER agree to any resolution that doesn't include the elimination of the state of Israel.
Do you disagree with that Daniel? If you do, what do you base your opinion on? What have the Palestinians ever done to show good faith toward a peaceful solution, that doesn't call for Israel to commit suicide?
I'd still like to hear your thoughts on that bit of fake funeral trickery. And Mr. FAFO. It's deception. Don't you agree?
I have to question why you're being so confrontational and rude. It's okay to have differences of opinion. I just don't happen to support genocide. And besides, I wasn't asking you the question. I was asking Robert the question. Over and out.. I hope...
We find common ground. I don't support genocide either.
I'm being confrontational b/c you make outrageous claims about Israel committing genocide and then can't back up what you're saying. At the same time, Hamas committed the most unspeakably barbaric acts on Oct 7, but that doesn't seem to bother you. There's no denying they did all those things. The Nazis had the sense to hide what they were doing in the death camps. Hamas made their own videos w/ GoPro cams. They WANTED others to see their barbarity.
A lot of young people promote idiotic ideas about this. "LGBTQ's for Hamas." These people are completely clueless about attitudes of Islamic extremists toward homosexuality. Maybe they've never seen videos of gays being thrown off of 4 story buildings while bound and blindfolded.
Have you, Daniel? Have you seen such videos? You think those are misinformation, and it never really happened, or what? Are you one of those good-hearted, well-meaning but naÌve young people who sees some videos about injustices and jumps onboard to right the wrongs? All while ignoring, those videos are made by people who air videos of fake funerals, and starring crisis actors playing multiple roles.
Just tell us what you think about the Oct 7 atrocities. You're down with it? Hamas was right to do it b/c the Israelis had it coming? The Israelis deserved it b/c of their genocide of Palestinians?
Really Daniel, I want to know. What do you think about Palestinians' actions on Oct 7?
I haven't denied, Palestinian civilians are getting killed. Japanese civilians were killed after Pearl Harbor. Did the US go too far?
Do you want me to repeat the question I asked Daniel? What is your answer, Jon?
"On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?"
You can do better than Daniel just by providing an answer. Any answer.
I’m trying to say that I wish you listen to Glenn Greenwald’s perspective on this issue, which I think is a very fair-minded one, and he documents the facts he asserts. I don’t think you can cite any proof that a majority or even large minority of Palestinians supported the atrocities committed by Hamas soldiers against maybe 1,000 Israelis, so killing tens of thousands of them and ruining the lives of over two million others, half of which are under 18, is a barbaric response imo which most countries in the world are condemning and I expect there will be disastrous consequences for both Israel and the U.S. before long. If you listen to Greenwald and can cite any errors in the facts he asserts, I’m all ears.
You lost me when you wrote "I don’t think you can cite any proof that a majority or even large minority of Palestinians supported the atrocities committed by Hamas soldiers against maybe 1,000 Israelis..."
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises
I found all those in <60 sec. If I can find them, why can't you?
Hamas launches a surprise barbaric attack on Israeli civilians. And kills, let's say, 1,000. You're saying Israel can retaliate, but they have to stop when they've killed 1,000 Palis?
First, the poll was taken after the Israeli bombardment had been going on for some time. Second, try going to the source of the poll instead of biased reporting about it. The following is just one paragraph from the full poll results at https://pcpsr.org/en/node/963
"Most of the questions asked in this last quarter of 2023 revolved around the October 7 offensive and the subsequent Israel-Hamas war and ground invasion of the Gaza Strip. It also covered the debate about the future of the Gaza Strip after the war and the Palestinian perception of the positions of the various relevant countries and actors. Findings indicate that a majority of the respondents believe that Hamas' decision to carry out the offensive is correct, and believe that the attack came in response to “settler attacks on Al-Aqsa Mosque and West Bank residents, and for the release of Palestinian prisoners.” It is worth noting that there are significant differences between the attitudes of the residents of the West Bank compared to those of the Gaza Strip, in terms of the “correctness” of the Hamas' decision (and other matters), as the attitudes of Gazans tend to show a greater degree of skepticism about that decision. It is clear from the findings that believing in the “correctness” of Hamas' decision does not mean support for all acts that might have been committed by Hamas fighters on October 7. The overwhelming majority of respondents say that they have not seen videos from international or social media showing atrocities committed by Hamas members against Israeli civilians that day, such as the killing of women and children in their homes. Indeed, more than 90% believe that Hamas fighters did not commit the atrocities contained in these videos. When asked what is or is not allowed in war, under international humanitarian law, the findings indicate that the vast majority believes that attacking or killing civilians in their homes is not permissible. The majority (except in the Gaza Strip) also believe that taking civilians as hostages or prisoners of war is also not permissible."
And then:
"Support for Hamas has more than tripled in the West Bank compared to three months ago. In the Gaza Strip, support for Hamas increased but not significantly. Despite the increase in its popularity, the majority in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip does not support Hamas. It is worth noting that support for Hamas usually rises temporarily during or immediately after a war and then returns to the previous level several months after the end of the war."
And they only polled adults, who comprise less than half the population, while the entire population is being bombed.
Re: "When asked what is or is not allowed in war, under international humanitarian law, the findings indicate that the vast majority believes that attacking or killing civilians in their homes is not permissible." Apparently the vast majority have forgotten the wholesale bombing of European cities, chock full of civilians, during WWII.
Listen to yourself. You initially wrote, "I don’t think you can cite any proof that a majority or even large minority of Palestinians supported the atrocities committed by Hamas soldiers against maybe 1,000 Israelis..."
Here, you've written a lengthy explanation of why the thing you said couldn't exist exists.
P.S. Are you aware that young Gaza’s children are having limbs amputated without anesthetics because Israel won’t let medicines in? Is that how they are displaying sensitivity towards the people in Gaza? And watch the videos Greenwald plays of Israelis calling for the complete destruction of Gaza. This is mass formation psychosis at its worst, imo, and that applies as well to Christians who support the barbarity because they believe a “strong Israel” is a necessary prerequisite to the “Second Coming” of Jesus. Stark raving insanity, imo.
Paul Craig Roberts is a very religious Christian who was the primary architect, I believe, of President Reagan’s economic policies, and he is strongly against what Israel and the US are doing in Gaza. PaulCraigRoberts.org
"On November 30, the General Assembly held a vote on its annual call for a “Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine”, which advocates the two-state solution premised upon the applicability of international law to the conflict and the establishment of a Palestinian state along the pre-June 1967 lines (also known as the 1949 armistice lines or “the Green Line”). The result was 153 countries voting in favor, 10 abstaining, and 9 voting to reject the two-state solution, including Israel and the US. On December 19, the General Assembly held a vote on its annual reaffirmation of “The right of the Palestinian people to self-determination”. The result was 172 countries voting in favor, 10 abstaining, and 4 voting to reject the Palestinians’ right to self-determination, including Israel and the US." Israel charged with Genocide at Int. Court of Justice - J. Hammond
The UN Secretary-General firmly rebuked what he described as the “false” claim by top Israeli diplomats that he had sought to justify the terror attacks of 7 October by Hamas in a speech he delivered to the Security Council.
Excerpt: "Addressing Tuesday’s debate in the Council on the worsening crisis in Israel and Palestine, the UN chief said that although nothing could justify the “appalling” attacks by Hamas of 7 October which triggered the siege and bombardment of Gaza, it was important to recognize they “did not happen in a vacuum” and did not justify the collective punishment of Palestinians."
I never would have guessed from your answer the UNSecGen found the Hamas attacks on Israel "appalling. But then says, they “did not happen in a vacuum” and did not justify the collective punishment of Palestinians."
Your response is about his being butt-hurt b/c the Israelis accused him of justifying the terror attacks. I would not have said he justified the attacks, but he certainly did make excuses for them. Wouldn't you agree? The UN Secretary General made excuses for the attacks?
Getting back to the question I asked, there's no denying Hamas carried out a barbaric exceptionally inhumane attack on civilians. Why didn't the UN condemn Hamas?
The UN has condemned Hamas, but their point is that genocide of Palestinians is not justified. Two wrongs don't make a right. He said it was wrong, they attacked due to decades of oppression, which is the context. Oppressed people respond via violence often. Not the right move in my opinion, to respond to goading in such a manner, yet that dynamic has played out through history. We have differing views on the situation.
To be clear, you replied, "The UN has condemned Hamas..."
I don't think the UN has condemned Hamas. A number of individuals, including UN diplomats, have condemned Hamas. But UN condemnation is a formal process, and my searches show no results of UN condemning Hamas..
NYT documented instances of Hamas shooting women in the vagina, raping a women from behind and stabbing her in the back with a knife each time she flinched, cutting a woman's breast off with a box cutter and tossing it around like they were playing catch with a ball, chopping off women's heads, and a lot more. http://tinyurl.com/yc5mxwhd
These atrocities don't warrant a resolution of condemnation?
You tap-dance around the question, pretending to respond, but are evading.
I'm asking for the third time. Why won't the UN pass a resolution condemning Hamas for it's atrocities?
Wasn't it the vaunted UNITED NATIONS who after WWII ended, VOTED to give the Jewish people a tiny slice of land in what had been Jewish land a couple thousand years ago?
The UN discussed it and I'm not sure there was an overwhelming agreement, but Truman was on board which I believe paved the way. The Brits had control of that area after WWII.
The UN, even at that time, I'm sure was planning ways to devise future conflicts and a state of Israel would be one way.
The western nations set up the state of Israel, the Uk having a the lead role apparently. Maybe some of the blame, so to speak, for the 'Palestinian' situation there is the lack of follow-through of the west to provide for a state or territory for non -Jews. The non-Jews started fighting the jews immediately and the hatred has grown out of proportion to the point of the Palestinians teaching this hatred to all their children. How would you expect the younger generations to act toward the Jews?
While all that is true, it did not start there. After the Ottoman empire was defeated, the Brits assumed control of Palestine and under the Balfour Declaration in 1917 intended to open a national home for the Jewish people there. In 1922 the League of Nations told Britain to facilitate and encourage Jewish immigration and settlement on the land. The Arabs increased their attacks on the Jews that were already there and that is when, in 1936, a commission recommended partitioning the country. The Arabs rejected the idea and the Jews accepted the principle of partition. Britain established immigration restrictions on the Jews. After WWII the Brits turned the issue over to the UN after turning away many ships of Jewish refugees. It two, recommended a partition into two states. Same response, okay Jews no deal Arabs. The state of Israel was established and Jewish immigration was unimpeded.
I have an interest in this only because I believe there became two sets of ‘Jewish’ people. Those descending from Jacob (Israel) and those descending from Esau (Edom). Many Rabbis acknowledge this. They say Esau was rejected by God in favor of Israel. They have taken it further and associated Esau with Rome and Christianity. I, on the other hand, reverse that and add that the Edomites, although Hebrew, are not Jews, which was a term used very late in the telling, and originally was only associated with the progeny of Judah of Judea, one of Israel's sons, i.e. the Israelites. The Jewish people of Judea do not have a problem with the Arabs. The Edomites traveled far and wide given the rocky Mount Seir had offered little. They were the ones dispersed throughout the world.
Thank you for expanding on this for me. I comment now and then to people about this conflict going back to Abraham, but I run across an occasional person who doesn't see it that way at all and believe it is all the Jews' fault.
I have my owns views as you do but I don’t express them because I base them on a theory that I have no way of proving. I will just say that nothing is as it seems, Muslims are a late comer when it comes to the formation of a religion, and that the powers that be throughout the ages have used religions to sow discourse and marauders about the world to extend their religion, sometimes by force.
Wasn't he just a descendant of forced converts? I did not know he destroyed records. I wonder why that was so important to him. Perhaps for the same reason he killed anyone that could be a competitor?
I am trying to independently verify this, but have heard he destroyed them sometime after Jesus’ death, a King of Israel needed to be able to prove his lineage. Since he was ‘placed’ on the throne by Rome, he would have been all the more under scrutiny. Perhaps during the Jewish rebellions?
We did - our State Dept pushed hard to stop it while Russia was for it. Truman, against their advice, made the US the first to recognized the new State and was followed by the U.S.S.R. who I believe had perhaps millions of Jews in their country, they still do.
Lets not forget that an obscure state department EMPLOYEE - Alger Hiss - who just happened to (also) be a member of the CPUSA and an active Soviet agent, was instrumental in formulating the Charter (of) the soon to be "United Nations"; or that Alger Hiss was the "1st secretary" of the fledgling UN at its 1st meeting in San Francisco; or that he 'rigged' the UN Charter giving the U.S.S.R., (2) votes in the UN Security Council; or that Hiss was finally convicted (via the evidence provided by another "American" Communist - Whittaker Chambers - former editor of TIME Magazine) - and spent a few years in a U.S. penitentiary. (WAY TOO FEW).
The Bible is replete with stories of the Philistines attacking the Israelites. King David’s youthful encounter with Goliath, a mighty Philistine warrior, is but one of these examples. Goliath lived in Gath, which is now part of Gaza. Gaza is mentioned in the Bible as one of the Philistine cities.
During the Roman Empire, this region was renamed to “Palaestina” following the Bar Kokhba revolt to punish the Jews with the name of their enemies. Emperor Hadrian renamed the land for the Jews’ archenemies, the Philistines.
But Jews remained in the land until the rebirth of Israel in May 1948. The small and scattered population of Arabs identified as Ottomans before 1917. When the entire empire collapsed, they identified as Arabs, not Palestinians. The creation of Palestinian identity only began in the 1960s with the rise of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), which was a terrorist group.
Fuck the Bible. Israel is dropping 200 pound bombs on children. I don’t condone Hamas’ killing of civilians but what Israel is doing in retaliation is barbaric. And many believe their goal is to implement an agenda which existed long before the Hamas attack, to establish “Greater Israel” and reduce the population of Palestinians in it so Jews constitute a majority. Please watch Glenn Greenwald: https://rumble.com/v42tfen-system-update-204.html
Forgive me but it's just not as simple as that. The military operation by hamas on october seventh was an opportunity for me to find out more about israel and the conflicts over there. What I found out completely changed my mind about israel. It's not too hard to find that information... if you want to.
That's true. It is never hard to find out more (opinions or twisted fact). Have you seen the maps depicting that area in ancient times? Did you find out that the Arabs did not have a religion until after the Christians had formed large areas throughout the Middle East and Europe? That one Arab in particular was responsible for gathering the momentum to invent a religion to eventually remove the Christians, which they successfully did and forced the Muslim religion on every country in Asia and the Middle East on penalty of death if they did not convert?
History has been re-written so many times by later generations that only those that use the writing found at the time can make any truthful statements. Post 1960 shows two sides to the coin of this area and longstanding hatred for the Jews by all peoples makes it easy to side with the haters.
I just read Charles Eisenstein's substack "Friends Don't Let Friends Destroy Themselves" If you read it, what do you think? He is a philosopher and advisor to RFKJr.
You didn't ask me Daniel but I'll tell you what i think. Intentions matter. And credibility matters.
NYT and BBC have had to eat too much crow, after having accepted Hamas claims of Israeli atrocities at face value, and then later made fools when faced w/ electronic data captured by Israeli and US intelligence. BBC in particular ran multiple stories with Crisis Actor Mr. FAFO playing his many roles before they finally, finally woke up to the fact they were being duped.
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23MrFAFO&src=typed_query
Daniel, do you want to tell us what's going on here?:
https://twitter.com/joyy_ky/status/1720649186075459690
On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?
The intentions of zionists have been to get rid of the palestinian people since the beginning of all of this when they took their land. Israel is an apartheid terrorist state.
I'm calling bullshit Daniel.
Israel does what is necessary to defend itself. But does not have the aim to get rid of the Palestinian people.
Israel left Gaza in 2005. That was 18 years ago. They have not attacked civilians in Gaza during that time. Yet Gaza continues to send missiles into Israel aimed at civilian targets.
Presidents Carter and Clinton worked very hard to negotiate peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Clinton in particular had Israel ready to agree to a peace. But the Palis would just not agree. The wise-crack about those negotiations was, "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. "
Israel is NOT an apartheid state. You're lying again. Arabs peacefully live in Israel with full citizenship rights, including holding elected office in the Knesset.
It's clear, Palestinians will NEVER, EVER agree to any resolution that doesn't include the elimination of the state of Israel.
Do you disagree with that Daniel? If you do, what do you base your opinion on? What have the Palestinians ever done to show good faith toward a peaceful solution, that doesn't call for Israel to commit suicide?
I'd still like to hear your thoughts on that bit of fake funeral trickery. And Mr. FAFO. It's deception. Don't you agree?
It's sad to be so entrenched in opinion
I'll take facts over opinions any day. Useful idiots or willfull blindness is what you get with opinions such as this.
Yes, I'm firm in my opinion. Not entrenched.
You haven't said anything to cause me to change my mind. I seriously doubt you've changed anyone else's.
Get back to us when you can present some facts to support what you're saying.
I have to question why you're being so confrontational and rude. It's okay to have differences of opinion. I just don't happen to support genocide. And besides, I wasn't asking you the question. I was asking Robert the question. Over and out.. I hope...
We find common ground. I don't support genocide either.
I'm being confrontational b/c you make outrageous claims about Israel committing genocide and then can't back up what you're saying. At the same time, Hamas committed the most unspeakably barbaric acts on Oct 7, but that doesn't seem to bother you. There's no denying they did all those things. The Nazis had the sense to hide what they were doing in the death camps. Hamas made their own videos w/ GoPro cams. They WANTED others to see their barbarity.
A lot of young people promote idiotic ideas about this. "LGBTQ's for Hamas." These people are completely clueless about attitudes of Islamic extremists toward homosexuality. Maybe they've never seen videos of gays being thrown off of 4 story buildings while bound and blindfolded.
Have you, Daniel? Have you seen such videos? You think those are misinformation, and it never really happened, or what? Are you one of those good-hearted, well-meaning but naÌve young people who sees some videos about injustices and jumps onboard to right the wrongs? All while ignoring, those videos are made by people who air videos of fake funerals, and starring crisis actors playing multiple roles.
Just tell us what you think about the Oct 7 atrocities. You're down with it? Hamas was right to do it b/c the Israelis had it coming? The Israelis deserved it b/c of their genocide of Palestinians?
Really Daniel, I want to know. What do you think about Palestinians' actions on Oct 7?
https://rumble.com/v42tfen-system-update-204.html
What are you trying to say?
I haven't denied, Palestinian civilians are getting killed. Japanese civilians were killed after Pearl Harbor. Did the US go too far?
Do you want me to repeat the question I asked Daniel? What is your answer, Jon?
"On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?"
You can do better than Daniel just by providing an answer. Any answer.
I’m trying to say that I wish you listen to Glenn Greenwald’s perspective on this issue, which I think is a very fair-minded one, and he documents the facts he asserts. I don’t think you can cite any proof that a majority or even large minority of Palestinians supported the atrocities committed by Hamas soldiers against maybe 1,000 Israelis, so killing tens of thousands of them and ruining the lives of over two million others, half of which are under 18, is a barbaric response imo which most countries in the world are condemning and I expect there will be disastrous consequences for both Israel and the U.S. before long. If you listen to Greenwald and can cite any errors in the facts he asserts, I’m all ears.
You lost me when you wrote "I don’t think you can cite any proof that a majority or even large minority of Palestinians supported the atrocities committed by Hamas soldiers against maybe 1,000 Israelis..."
Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
Poll shows soaring Palestinian support for Hamas; 72% back October 7 atrocities
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-soaring-support-for-hamas-in-west-bank-as-90-say-abbas-should-resign/
I found all those in <60 sec. If I can find them, why can't you?
Hamas launches a surprise barbaric attack on Israeli civilians. And kills, let's say, 1,000. You're saying Israel can retaliate, but they have to stop when they've killed 1,000 Palis?
Fuck that shit.
First, the poll was taken after the Israeli bombardment had been going on for some time. Second, try going to the source of the poll instead of biased reporting about it. The following is just one paragraph from the full poll results at https://pcpsr.org/en/node/963
"Most of the questions asked in this last quarter of 2023 revolved around the October 7 offensive and the subsequent Israel-Hamas war and ground invasion of the Gaza Strip. It also covered the debate about the future of the Gaza Strip after the war and the Palestinian perception of the positions of the various relevant countries and actors. Findings indicate that a majority of the respondents believe that Hamas' decision to carry out the offensive is correct, and believe that the attack came in response to “settler attacks on Al-Aqsa Mosque and West Bank residents, and for the release of Palestinian prisoners.” It is worth noting that there are significant differences between the attitudes of the residents of the West Bank compared to those of the Gaza Strip, in terms of the “correctness” of the Hamas' decision (and other matters), as the attitudes of Gazans tend to show a greater degree of skepticism about that decision. It is clear from the findings that believing in the “correctness” of Hamas' decision does not mean support for all acts that might have been committed by Hamas fighters on October 7. The overwhelming majority of respondents say that they have not seen videos from international or social media showing atrocities committed by Hamas members against Israeli civilians that day, such as the killing of women and children in their homes. Indeed, more than 90% believe that Hamas fighters did not commit the atrocities contained in these videos. When asked what is or is not allowed in war, under international humanitarian law, the findings indicate that the vast majority believes that attacking or killing civilians in their homes is not permissible. The majority (except in the Gaza Strip) also believe that taking civilians as hostages or prisoners of war is also not permissible."
And then:
"Support for Hamas has more than tripled in the West Bank compared to three months ago. In the Gaza Strip, support for Hamas increased but not significantly. Despite the increase in its popularity, the majority in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip does not support Hamas. It is worth noting that support for Hamas usually rises temporarily during or immediately after a war and then returns to the previous level several months after the end of the war."
And they only polled adults, who comprise less than half the population, while the entire population is being bombed.
Re: "When asked what is or is not allowed in war, under international humanitarian law, the findings indicate that the vast majority believes that attacking or killing civilians in their homes is not permissible." Apparently the vast majority have forgotten the wholesale bombing of European cities, chock full of civilians, during WWII.
Listen to yourself. You initially wrote, "I don’t think you can cite any proof that a majority or even large minority of Palestinians supported the atrocities committed by Hamas soldiers against maybe 1,000 Israelis..."
Here, you've written a lengthy explanation of why the thing you said couldn't exist exists.
This is getting to be comical.
P.S. Are you aware that young Gaza’s children are having limbs amputated without anesthetics because Israel won’t let medicines in? Is that how they are displaying sensitivity towards the people in Gaza? And watch the videos Greenwald plays of Israelis calling for the complete destruction of Gaza. This is mass formation psychosis at its worst, imo, and that applies as well to Christians who support the barbarity because they believe a “strong Israel” is a necessary prerequisite to the “Second Coming” of Jesus. Stark raving insanity, imo.
I don't expect them to show "sensitivity" to the Palestinian people. I wouldn't if I were in their shoes.
And you wouldn't if your wife and children were Oct 7 victims.
Let's get one thing straight. If the Palestinians could snap their fingers and wipe out every single Israeli, they'd do it without a 2nd thought.
Pali's peace terms: They'll agree to peace when Israel is eliminated. Nothing less is acceptable.
Don't expect Israel to commit suicide for the sake of peace.
Paul Craig Roberts is a very religious Christian who was the primary architect, I believe, of President Reagan’s economic policies, and he is strongly against what Israel and the US are doing in Gaza. PaulCraigRoberts.org
You realize you shot what little credibility you had out of the water with that, "I don’t think you can cite any proof..." gambit, don't you?
You and Paul Craig Roberts are entitled to your opinions. I've given you an opportunity to change my mind, but you're not cutting it.
"On November 30, the General Assembly held a vote on its annual call for a “Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine”, which advocates the two-state solution premised upon the applicability of international law to the conflict and the establishment of a Palestinian state along the pre-June 1967 lines (also known as the 1949 armistice lines or “the Green Line”). The result was 153 countries voting in favor, 10 abstaining, and 9 voting to reject the two-state solution, including Israel and the US. On December 19, the General Assembly held a vote on its annual reaffirmation of “The right of the Palestinian people to self-determination”. The result was 172 countries voting in favor, 10 abstaining, and 4 voting to reject the Palestinians’ right to self-determination, including Israel and the US." Israel charged with Genocide at Int. Court of Justice - J. Hammond
Margaret, serious question- what is the explanation for the UN failing to condemn the Palestinians' Oct 7 atrocities, but condemning Israel?
My Word: The UN’s jokes, tricks and disasters
The UN General Assembly passed no fewer than 15 resolutions targeting the Jewish state in 2022 – compared to 13 on the rest of the world combined.
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-724396
After failing to condemn Hamas terror group, UN adopts eight resolutions condemning Jewish state
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-failing-to-condemn-hamas-terror-group-un-adopts-eight-resolutions-condemning-jewish-state/ar-AA1jJau2
The UN Secretary-General firmly rebuked what he described as the “false” claim by top Israeli diplomats that he had sought to justify the terror attacks of 7 October by Hamas in a speech he delivered to the Security Council.
Margaret, You evaded the question.
http://tinyurl.com/yfvjd3ky
Excerpt: "Addressing Tuesday’s debate in the Council on the worsening crisis in Israel and Palestine, the UN chief said that although nothing could justify the “appalling” attacks by Hamas of 7 October which triggered the siege and bombardment of Gaza, it was important to recognize they “did not happen in a vacuum” and did not justify the collective punishment of Palestinians."
I never would have guessed from your answer the UNSecGen found the Hamas attacks on Israel "appalling. But then says, they “did not happen in a vacuum” and did not justify the collective punishment of Palestinians."
Your response is about his being butt-hurt b/c the Israelis accused him of justifying the terror attacks. I would not have said he justified the attacks, but he certainly did make excuses for them. Wouldn't you agree? The UN Secretary General made excuses for the attacks?
Getting back to the question I asked, there's no denying Hamas carried out a barbaric exceptionally inhumane attack on civilians. Why didn't the UN condemn Hamas?
The UN has condemned Hamas, but their point is that genocide of Palestinians is not justified. Two wrongs don't make a right. He said it was wrong, they attacked due to decades of oppression, which is the context. Oppressed people respond via violence often. Not the right move in my opinion, to respond to goading in such a manner, yet that dynamic has played out through history. We have differing views on the situation.
To be clear, you replied, "The UN has condemned Hamas..."
I don't think the UN has condemned Hamas. A number of individuals, including UN diplomats, have condemned Hamas. But UN condemnation is a formal process, and my searches show no results of UN condemning Hamas..
Can you please provide a link?
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142012
UN spokesperson Staphane Dujarric........
This is saying a few individual UN diplomats have condemned Hamas.
My first post to you included this.
After failing to condemn Hamas terror group, UN adopts eight resolutions condemning Jewish state
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-failing-to-condemn-hamas-terror-group-un-adopts-eight-resolutions-condemning-jewish-state/ar-AA1jJau2
The key word there is RESOLUTIONS.
NYT documented instances of Hamas shooting women in the vagina, raping a women from behind and stabbing her in the back with a knife each time she flinched, cutting a woman's breast off with a box cutter and tossing it around like they were playing catch with a ball, chopping off women's heads, and a lot more. http://tinyurl.com/yc5mxwhd
These atrocities don't warrant a resolution of condemnation?
You tap-dance around the question, pretending to respond, but are evading.
I'm asking for the third time. Why won't the UN pass a resolution condemning Hamas for it's atrocities?
https://press.un.org/en/2023/sgsm21981.doc.htm
It's important, of course, for a statement to be made as soon as possible after the event, don't you agree, Evil Incarnate?
Wasn't it the vaunted UNITED NATIONS who after WWII ended, VOTED to give the Jewish people a tiny slice of land in what had been Jewish land a couple thousand years ago?
The UN discussed it and I'm not sure there was an overwhelming agreement, but Truman was on board which I believe paved the way. The Brits had control of that area after WWII.
The UN, even at that time, I'm sure was planning ways to devise future conflicts and a state of Israel would be one way.
The western nations set up the state of Israel, the Uk having a the lead role apparently. Maybe some of the blame, so to speak, for the 'Palestinian' situation there is the lack of follow-through of the west to provide for a state or territory for non -Jews. The non-Jews started fighting the jews immediately and the hatred has grown out of proportion to the point of the Palestinians teaching this hatred to all their children. How would you expect the younger generations to act toward the Jews?
While all that is true, it did not start there. After the Ottoman empire was defeated, the Brits assumed control of Palestine and under the Balfour Declaration in 1917 intended to open a national home for the Jewish people there. In 1922 the League of Nations told Britain to facilitate and encourage Jewish immigration and settlement on the land. The Arabs increased their attacks on the Jews that were already there and that is when, in 1936, a commission recommended partitioning the country. The Arabs rejected the idea and the Jews accepted the principle of partition. Britain established immigration restrictions on the Jews. After WWII the Brits turned the issue over to the UN after turning away many ships of Jewish refugees. It two, recommended a partition into two states. Same response, okay Jews no deal Arabs. The state of Israel was established and Jewish immigration was unimpeded.
I have an interest in this only because I believe there became two sets of ‘Jewish’ people. Those descending from Jacob (Israel) and those descending from Esau (Edom). Many Rabbis acknowledge this. They say Esau was rejected by God in favor of Israel. They have taken it further and associated Esau with Rome and Christianity. I, on the other hand, reverse that and add that the Edomites, although Hebrew, are not Jews, which was a term used very late in the telling, and originally was only associated with the progeny of Judah of Judea, one of Israel's sons, i.e. the Israelites. The Jewish people of Judea do not have a problem with the Arabs. The Edomites traveled far and wide given the rocky Mount Seir had offered little. They were the ones dispersed throughout the world.
Thank you for expanding on this for me. I comment now and then to people about this conflict going back to Abraham, but I run across an occasional person who doesn't see it that way at all and believe it is all the Jews' fault.
I have my owns views as you do but I don’t express them because I base them on a theory that I have no way of proving. I will just say that nothing is as it seems, Muslims are a late comer when it comes to the formation of a religion, and that the powers that be throughout the ages have used religions to sow discourse and marauders about the world to extend their religion, sometimes by force.
The client King Herod was an Edomite. He also, apparently, destroyed the ancestry records of the Jews.
Wasn't he just a descendant of forced converts? I did not know he destroyed records. I wonder why that was so important to him. Perhaps for the same reason he killed anyone that could be a competitor?
I am trying to independently verify this, but have heard he destroyed them sometime after Jesus’ death, a King of Israel needed to be able to prove his lineage. Since he was ‘placed’ on the throne by Rome, he would have been all the more under scrutiny. Perhaps during the Jewish rebellions?
I have a different memory. We actually opposed but ussr pushed hard for it seeking an open door into the Middle East.
We did - our State Dept pushed hard to stop it while Russia was for it. Truman, against their advice, made the US the first to recognized the new State and was followed by the U.S.S.R. who I believe had perhaps millions of Jews in their country, they still do.
Lets not forget that an obscure state department EMPLOYEE - Alger Hiss - who just happened to (also) be a member of the CPUSA and an active Soviet agent, was instrumental in formulating the Charter (of) the soon to be "United Nations"; or that Alger Hiss was the "1st secretary" of the fledgling UN at its 1st meeting in San Francisco; or that he 'rigged' the UN Charter giving the U.S.S.R., (2) votes in the UN Security Council; or that Hiss was finally convicted (via the evidence provided by another "American" Communist - Whittaker Chambers - former editor of TIME Magazine) - and spent a few years in a U.S. penitentiary. (WAY TOO FEW).
Perhaps that speaks to why Israel operates in many ways, like the old USSR.
"Collective Leftist" tendencies appear to be baked in to every race and in every generation.
Great add Tom! How could we forget that!
Thank's Shelly.
Sad, but true the generation (before) the Boomers is ancient history - and forgotten too.
If this and the next generation don't start reading history before its disguised by lies no one with know the truth.
Bad news for our children and theirs -
The Bible is replete with stories of the Philistines attacking the Israelites. King David’s youthful encounter with Goliath, a mighty Philistine warrior, is but one of these examples. Goliath lived in Gath, which is now part of Gaza. Gaza is mentioned in the Bible as one of the Philistine cities.
During the Roman Empire, this region was renamed to “Palaestina” following the Bar Kokhba revolt to punish the Jews with the name of their enemies. Emperor Hadrian renamed the land for the Jews’ archenemies, the Philistines.
But Jews remained in the land until the rebirth of Israel in May 1948. The small and scattered population of Arabs identified as Ottomans before 1917. When the entire empire collapsed, they identified as Arabs, not Palestinians. The creation of Palestinian identity only began in the 1960s with the rise of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), which was a terrorist group.
Fuck the Bible. Israel is dropping 200 pound bombs on children. I don’t condone Hamas’ killing of civilians but what Israel is doing in retaliation is barbaric. And many believe their goal is to implement an agenda which existed long before the Hamas attack, to establish “Greater Israel” and reduce the population of Palestinians in it so Jews constitute a majority. Please watch Glenn Greenwald: https://rumble.com/v42tfen-system-update-204.html
I agree!
Forgive me but it's just not as simple as that. The military operation by hamas on october seventh was an opportunity for me to find out more about israel and the conflicts over there. What I found out completely changed my mind about israel. It's not too hard to find that information... if you want to.
That's true. It is never hard to find out more (opinions or twisted fact). Have you seen the maps depicting that area in ancient times? Did you find out that the Arabs did not have a religion until after the Christians had formed large areas throughout the Middle East and Europe? That one Arab in particular was responsible for gathering the momentum to invent a religion to eventually remove the Christians, which they successfully did and forced the Muslim religion on every country in Asia and the Middle East on penalty of death if they did not convert?
History has been re-written so many times by later generations that only those that use the writing found at the time can make any truthful statements. Post 1960 shows two sides to the coin of this area and longstanding hatred for the Jews by all peoples makes it easy to side with the haters.
None of this divulges what I think.
I just read Charles Eisenstein's substack "Friends Don't Let Friends Destroy Themselves" If you read it, what do you think? He is a philosopher and advisor to RFKJr.
Exactly!