I'm afraid that's not how it is you've been listening to the news. If you're more widely read I think you'll understand by searching out. What is really going on over there. Thank you.
I'm afraid that's not how it is you've been listening to the news. If you're more widely read I think you'll understand by searching out. What is really going on over there. Thank you.
I've read several of your posts here Daniel. Do you really not see how lame they are? You're telling everyone you're right, and they're all wrong. But you don't tell them what they're wrong about. Nor do you provide any of the facts you found so persuasive.
You're telling people, "Do your own searches. Then you'll see what I see. "
You think we're all blank sheets of paper, and we haven't seen any information before now?
I'm asking now for the 4th time, what did you think about Palestinians' barbaric atrocities against women and children on Oct 7?
The fact you won't answer is itself an answer to the question.
What's your point? FJB said something one day, and recanted the next? Happens all the time. Hardly newsworthy
Anne, I have a couple of responses at hand. But first I want to know, do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not? A yes or no will do.
IтАЩve heard the reported atrocities committed against children by Hamas are lies. ThereтАЩs obviously a lot of disinformation and propaganda about what happened on Oct. 7th and what continues to happen. ItтАЩs hard to know what to believe. I wonder why your so confident about your views on this issue?
In every war both sides heavily deploy propaganda. They use emotion, outrage and empathy, to draw people to their тАШside'. There will be little truth and even less actual information about the reasons behind the conflict.
Lots of propaganda, Hamas committed crimes, they are terrorists, but lots of photoshopping going on too. In 1947 Israel had about 7% of the land, not enough for the great influx of Jews. The Arabs and Jews got along until the poison of Zionist ideology.
The NYT's reporting has been antagonistic toward Israel not just since Oct 7, but long before. I discount it's reporting heavily. However, given it's past biases, this article is credible:
A couple of excerpts follow. They are a small fraction of what was reported. Hope you have a strong stomach.
Same comment as to that little weasel Daniel. He was too cowardly to share his thoughts. I really do want to know what you think, Anne. What do you think it would be like to go through what these women went through? And what kind of animal would do what the Palestinians did? One last question- do you think the NYT's reporting is true? Or greatly exaggerated?
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. AbdushтАЩs тАФ legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
The Times viewed photographs of one womanтАЩs corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.
She said she then watched another woman тАЬshredded into pieces.тАЭ While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.
тАЬOne continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the road,тАЭ Sapir said.
She said the men sliced her face and then the woman fell out of view. Around the same time, she said, she saw three other women raped and terrorists carrying the severed heads of three more women.
You should not take the reporting of the NY Times at face value. There is considerable evidence that the stories recounted in the article you cite are actually propaganda with no evidence backing them up. Max Blumenthal and Aaron Mate of The Grayzone did an entire episode dissecting that story and showing where the flaws were:
A fair amount of the Blumenthal/Mate video is speculative. example: at 7:32, they show a photo of some burned cars, and start musing, there were some Israeli tanks and Apache helicopters in the area, umm, they don't know what happened. That's not an isolated example.
They ridicule the story of the woman being raped and simultaneously stabbed in the back, and of the woman whose breast was cut off. Their commentary is, Hamas is supposed to capture prisoners and get back into Gaza... how do they have time to rape someone.., and the breast being cut off is ridiculous on its face, etc. They nitpick about the story referring to one of the attackers as "a terrorist, instead of Hamas." Sorry Robert, but B&M are on really thin ice here. They have no knowledge of what the attackers instructions were, or what their frame of mind was. They questioned why a witness would not want to have her name reported. To me that's not at all hard to understand. They couldn't help but invoke the "R" word (rayciss) while yammering their stream of consciousness. Their commentary here made it clear, they had their minds made up they're going to debunk the story, no matter the merits.
They are strongest when they can talk about lists of victims and how they died, contrasting against the more lurid claims in the NYT story.
It's a little strong to say there's considerable evidence, as you put it, the NYT story has no evidence of its own to backup the story. Maybe more accurate to say evidence is lacking all around.
I'm certainly not invested in the NYT, although I've pointed to this story numerous times in this substack. At one time I was an NYT subscriber. I'm an extreme conservative, and, reading their reporting, it reached a point for me where they didn't have any credibility. I wrote a lot of comments to their online forum- few were published. This was years before they promoted their Trump-Russia collusion hoax.
I do appreciate your bringing this to my attention. It's another data point to add to the mix.
You're the guy who trying to participate in the conversation, and makes a comment about the thing people were talking about 15 minutes beforehand.
I'm skeptical about all news stories, no matter the source, until I've been able to see some corroboration.
It's undeniable Hamas has lied. Copy & paste from my post 6 posts above: On the other side of it, Hamas claimed an Israeli missile hit a hospital and killed 500 people. The NY Times repeated their claim w/o corroborating. Israeli and US military provided electronic warfare data to NYT, and they had to "add context" to the reporting ( a euphemism for correcting a false story). It was a Hamas missile that had gone off course, not Israeli. It hit a parking lot, not a hospital. It may or may not have killed some people, but almost certainly not 500.
NYT is to blame, but Hamas originated the lie. Disinformation is their stock-in-trade.
Moonspinner, I've asked questions about Hamas staging fake scenes 4 or 5 times before. Nobody has yet answered. Maybe you will be the first.
1. What's going on in this video? Why are these people staging a fake funeral:
Don't be so naive. Israel is just as experienced in false flags, fake "crises," LIHOPS (Let it happen on purpose), and other skullduggery as any of their enemies or allies. All is fair in love and war, eh? You *do* know what one of the mottoes of Mossad is, right? They are a clever bunch.
A little history for ya ...
"In July, 1954, an Israeli terrorist cell was activated inside Egypt. The ensuing attacks, cleverly designed to look like the work of Arabs, blasted and torched American and British targets. First, the Israeli terrorists firebombed the Alexandria Post Office. Then, they firebombed the US Information Agency libraries: one in Alexandria, and one in Cairo. Then, they firebombed a British-owned Metro-Goldwyn Mayer theatre, a railway terminal, the central post office, and a couple more theatres...
To smuggle their bombs inside the buildings, the terrorists used devices shaped like books, hiding them inside book covers. Once inside, bags filled with acid were placed on top of the nitroglycerin bombs. After several hours, the acid ate through the bags and ignited the nitroglycerin, causing explosions and blazing infernos.
In the early 1950s, the United States was making fast friends with Egypt, taking advantage of the new pan-Arab Egyptian government of Gamal Abdel Nasser. The warming relationship between the US and Egypt caused a very insecure Israel to feel threatened. Nassar also had plans to nationalize the Suez Canal, which had been controlled by the British for decades. Egypt had been known to blockade Israeli shipping through the canal and Israel feared Nassar would make a blockade permanent. After US President Eisenhower began encouraging the British to leave the Suez Canal Zone, Israel started looking for a way to make the British stay, and a way to remain best buddies with America. And what better way to treat your best friend than to stab them in the back and tell them one of your other friends did it?
David Ben Gurion, Israel's founding prime minister, thought that Egyptian terrorist attacks against Americans would be a perfect way to cool the growing US/Egypt relationship. Since there were no Egyptians planning attacks against Americans, Ben Gurion's prot├йg├йs did the next best thing: they recruited Israeli agents to pretend to be Egyptian terrorists. The top-secret Israeli terrorist cell, Unit 131, had existed since 1948. In 1950, Israel's Directorate of Military Intelligence Aman was created and Israel sent an undercover agent, Colonel Avraham Dar (alias: John Darling, British citizen of the island of Gibraltar), to recruit more members to Unit 131. He also trained them in how to build bombs and terrify Americans and British civilians working and living in Egypt. Before the terrorist cell was activated, another Israeli agent named Avraham (Avraham Seidenberg) was sent to take control from Avraham Dar. Seidenberg first went to Germany to establish an alias: he assumed the identy of Paul Frank, a former SS officer, complete with underground Nazi connections. By 1954, his new identity was in place and he went to Egypt to take command of Unit 131. Everything was going well for the Israeli terrorists it seemed. But, there was one thing the members of Unit 131 didn't know: their terrorist sleeper cell had itself been infiltrated by the Egyptian intelligence service. The new Unit 131 leader, Seidenberg, had betrayed them to the Egyptians.
So, when Unit 131 member Philip Nathanson made his way to bomb the British-owned Rio theatre in Alexandria, not only was he being followed, the Egyptian intelligence service had a fire engine waiting to put out the flames. As Nathanson stood in the ticket line, his bad luck turned worse when one of the bombs in his pocket ignited and then exploded. Nathanson was burned but not killed. As nearby pedestrians shouted warnings and wondered if he was a suicide bomber, Egyptian policemen stepped in, calmed the crowd, and identified Nathanson as one of the terrorists who had been blowing up American and British buildings. Nathanson was interrogated by Egypt's military intelligence and confessed the whole plot, which led to more arrests. When the Israeli spies were given a public trial, all the details of their terrorist training in Israel came to light.
Former Israeli Prime Minister Ben Gurion and Israel's Aman chief, Binyamin Gibli, tried to frame their own Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon. They even offered forged documents as proof. The frame-up worked for a while, so much so that the entire incident is still popularly known as the Lavon Affair. Lavon resigned and Ben Gurion came out of political retirement to replace him as Israel's Defense Minister. However, the truth did finally emerge. In 1960, a review of the inquiry discovered the fake documents, as well as perjury by Seidenberg. A committee of seven Cabinet members cleared Lavon. Although Ben Gurion never admitted fault, he did resign his post as Defense Minister."
тАЬBidenтАЩs claims were featured on the front pages of Western newspapers, and reports of beheaded babies have been cited in some quarters as justification for revenge attacks and the collective punishment of civilians in Gaza.
тАЬThe Israeli army has said that it cannot confirm the claims, which were repeated on Wednesday by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin NetanyahuтАЩs spokesperson Tal Heinrich.тАЭ
So, the Israeli army cannot confirm the claims. ItтАЩs not just a matter of Biden walking back something he said.
I don't know if the claims of atrocities on children are true or not. If I had to bet money, I'd bet they're true. The reporting in the NYT article in my other response to you makes it completely credible. Don't you think?
How old are you? Old enough to have been alive and remember 9-11? If not, would you believe me if I told you, in the days after, there were videos of dozens of people who had jumped from the towers to their deaths. The flames were to hot to bear. You see them as they fall to their certain death, and wonder, what were they thinking in those last moments? They don't show those anymore. It would be in bad taste, I guess.
Videos of the human remains found following Oct 7 have not been released to the public for the same reason. There have been a numerous reports on people who have viewed them. They generally say they get choked up, and are traumatized by what they saw. I have zero respect for Chris Cuomo. If even he is shocked by what he saw in the videos, it must be horrific.
Maybe these Oct 7 atrocities are all fabricated. Horrid videos created by AI, or something. There are too many signs, they're real. In the immediate aftermath of Oct 7, there were videos of Palis - their own videos - driving down the road and shooting pedestrians on the side of the road or people in other cars. On the other side of it, Hamas claimed an Israeli missile hit a hospital and killed 500 people. The NY Times repeated their claim w/o corroborating. Israeli and US military provided electronic warfare data to NYT, and they had to "add context" to the reporting ( a euphemism for correcting a false story). It was a Hamas missile that had gone off course, not Israeli. It hit a parking lot, not a hospital. It may or may not have killed some people, but almost certainly not 500.
NYT is to blame, but Hamas originated the lie. Disinformation is their stock-in-trade.
Anne, what do you think about the fake funeral video?
I don't automatically believe everything that comes from the Israelis either. But the Hamas agitprop is so ham-handed, it entirely destroys their credibility.
It *should* be common knowledge by now, if anyone learned from history, that the phrase "the fog of war" is rather apt, and lies and propaganda are invented by those wishing to manipulate the people into launching or supporting war. Recall the famous lie that was used to get the US into the Gulf War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Even if the lies are later shown to be lies, the damage is done, and many don't even hear about the retractions.
You ask: "... do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?"
I have a question, too. Have you never heard of a LIHOP? Don't you think Bibi, who was in deep legal trouble at the time, is the kind of person who would be willing to have some Israelis sacrificed in order to use that excuse to genocide (erase completely from Gaza) 2.2 million Palestinians? Let me ask YOU a question. How many Jews were killed by Hamas in early October? For each Jew killed by Hamas (and we now know that some were killed by Israeli soldiers, per the Israeli survivors), how many Palestinian women and children do you believe should be murdered or starved to death in revenge? Or kicked out of their homes and sent to tent cities in Sinai?
First, I don't believe any Palestinian women and children should be murdered or starved to death.
You didn't answer the question- do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?
I do not believe Israel has committed atrocities against the Palestinians. They know they are under the microscope. They are aware there are plenty of critics who want to find reasons to get them to stop their destruction of Hamas.
That's not to say there hasn't been collateral harm to Pali civilians as the IDF wages war against Hamas, who is using civilians as human shields. But I do believe Israel genuinely works hard to minimize such harm.
You write: "First, I don't believe any Palestinian women and children should be murdered or starved to death." Then why are you supporting the Zionists while they are doing this? I don't SUPPORT either one -- but murdering and starving thousands of Palestinian women and children for every Israeli killed on October 7 is EVIL INCARNATE, especially when there is evidence (from retired IDF, no less) that the Oct 7 mess was "allowed" to happen. Pay attention in future to what the final death count will be of Israelis vs Palestinians, and then also the numbers of Palestinians removed from their homes and sent into exile outside of Israel.
You ask a question the actual answer to which neither one of us can know -- so why do you keep on asking it? You yet again ask "do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?" AGAIN, HOW CAN EITHER YOU OR I POSSIBLY KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT? You've admitted that both sides can lie and deceive to gain support for their actions. We have evidence of just how convincing propaganda can be (did you fall for the ubiquitous Covid propaganda, the "safe and effective" Covid "vaccines"? Billions of people did!!).
As I've written previously, I, too, can come up with descriptions of atrocities that Israelis have committed against Palestinians for decades. Go to yandex.com and type in Israeli atrocities against Palestinians, and then I can ask you "do YOU think Israel committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?" Again, don't be so naive.
You believe everything said by some woman in a video?
I'm not saying it didn't happen. Perhaps it happened exactly as she described.
One of the first things I read this morning was a story about 6 different young women being detained by the IDF for carrying a knife. 6 different people- but the picture is each of the 6 stories in Palestinian newspapers was the same.
Hamas accused Israel of hitting a hospital with a rocket and killing 500 people. NYT reported the story as Hamas relayed it. Israeli and US military provided electronic data showing the rocket was not Israeli, but a Hamas rocket that went off course. And it landed in a parking lot. It didn't hit a hospital. NYT had to "add context" to their story - a way to correct a false story w/o fessing up.
Mr. FAFO is a crisis actor who has appeared in numerous videos- each time LARPing a different role. One day he's a dying warrior, the next day he's a doctor saving a patient's life: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23MrFAFO&src=typed_query
The Palestinians lie repeatedly. There may be a little bit of truth in there somewhere. But I sure as hell don't believe everything they say.
I am a skeptic about everything, including what the Israelis say. I don't believe anything until I've seen the same reporting from more than one credible source.
What do you think about the Hamas lies I've listed here?
Here I go again, having to repeat this for about the 3rd time.
Hamas and others made the claim the 10/7 atrocities were a hoax. According to them the atrocities did not happen. I've already written about their lie on an Israel rocket hitting a hospital, so they lose credibility points.
NYT has been adversarial to Israel for a very long time. With their history of anti-Israel bias, their reporting on the atrocities, which I've already provided a link to, had credibility.
Additionally, several people were invited to view videos of the carnage. Chris Cuomo was one, but there were many others. All who have viewed the videos have commented on how disturbing they were. Here's the stuff from Cuomo.
"Another Israeli Channel 12 report profiled a soldier who said she was ordered to open fire on homes in kibbutz Holit whether there were civilians inside or not. Indeed, ten Israelis were killed in Holit."
"Two months after the events of October 7, shocking new testimony reveals that the Israeli military, using an arsenal of gunfire, tank shelling and guided LAU missiles, killed almost certainly all but one of the 14 hostages held in a house in kibbutz BeтАЩeri тАУ along with their Hamas captors.
The testimony, published by Israel's Channel 12, was delivered by the sole survivor from the massacre inside one house, Hadas Dagan, a resident of BeтАЩeri who had previously maintained her silence."
I've already acknowledged Israel has killed it's own people, in a response to Daniel, above, copied & pasted here:
'"On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?"
Daniel pussied out and didn't answer the question. How about you give it a try. Do intentions matter, Moonspinner?
You act as if I have to read every single posting of yours in order to comment. You act as if I have to comment WHEN you think it appropriate (you write that I'm "late to the party again"). What arrogance.
How do you know what was the "intent" of Hamas, when I assume you weren't among them and privy to their thoughts and words? You're a mind reader? You assume that what you read on the mainstream news about the "rape and torture" is true? How do you know it's true?
You surely must know that Mossad has infiltrated Hamas long ago and has been financially supporting them. As I wrote elsewhere, Mossad is a rather clever organization. This October 7 "LIHOP" sure appears to be one of Mossad's common enough false flags -- a means to a long-desired end -- it's the excuse for the genocide of the Palestinians -- getting rid of all of them, by death or exile.
Scott Horton, the editorial director of the Antiwar website, has found further evidence that Hamas is an Israeli-controlled terror organization. Horton points to a recent post at the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. The article is locked up behind a paywall. However, it is posted on the Archive.org website.
During NetanyahuтАЩs fraud trial, writes Gidi Wewitz, the prime minister is quoted as declaring,
тАЬAnyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,тАЭ he told a meeting of his Likud partyтАЩs Knesset members in March 2019. тАЬThis is part of our strategyтАФto isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.тАЭ
I commented you came late to the discussion, which you did. You seemed to think all your comments were original thinking. But they weren't. And yeah, I found it tiresome to have explain all of it AGAIN.
I can't get over how you hand-wave Hamas's atrocities away as "fog of war." That's bullshit. The Palestinian people are twisted. You're a student of this stuff, so surely you've seen videos of 8 and 10 year-olds saying they hate Jews, they want to stab a Jew, they want to be a suicide martyr. That's sick. That's Islamic/Palestinian culture that did that, not Israel.
I'm 67 yo. I've been watching these developments in the Mideast for a long time. Egypt has made peace w/ Israel. Saudi Arabia was on the verge of a peace agreement. Qatar and the Emirates were warming up.
The Palestinians and the Iranians stand apart from all the other Arab and Farsi nations. They've made it abundantly clear, THEY DO NOT WANT A PEACE WITH ISRAEL unless it involves the destruction of Israel. While they're waging their never-ending war, they're lying the whole time. Israel left Gaza in 2005. They have not been there to oppress the Palis, which is a claim repeated ad nauseum. Western nations have donated $billions to Gaza. Instead of using it for economic and human development, they use it to build tunnels and home-made rockets, which they aim at civilians.
You may be right. This may all be machinations by Netanyahu. I'm skeptical. But it's possible.
The stuff I know about Hamas is stuff I've cross-checked with corroboration from multiple sources. If you want to be persuasive in what you're saying about Netanyahu, bring the receipts. Something going beyond a single report in a Palestinian newspaper, an Israeli paper (Israel has its equivalents of Trump-hating NYT writing stories about Trump-Russia collusion, which as you know, were false), or the say-so of Mr. FAFO.
You write: "You're a student of this stuff, so surely you've seen videos of 8 and 10 year-olds saying they hate Jews, they want to stab a Jew, they want to be a suicide martyr. That's sick."
Behold, the Jewish children doing the same. That's sick.
I don't have to convince you. You are so sure that what you see and hear from the mainstream media is true regarding Hamas atrocities (they may very well be true, and may very well be planned that way by Mossad, which, you have to admit, is a clever psyop), but then you admit that the mainstream media's Trump-Russia collusion reporting was false. Why trust the mainstream media at all? I don't.
And there's plenty of retired IDF (I don't have to do research for you -- it takes time, and I'm through with this conversation) who are convinced that Bibi is resurrecting his "statesman" facade, to get him out of legal trouble. I've noted their opinions. But now that you know Bibi might be the real instigator for this "Greater Israel" dream, and this might very well be a rather masterful LIHOP (leave it to Mossad to pull off something like this), you're welcome to do the research yourself.
Heh. You really don't know me at all. AFAIC, MSM is lower than whale shit.
I wrote my reasons for giving credibility to the reports of Hamas atrocities in another post to you. Are you going to have me repeat them AGAIN?
As far as the song, I don't have a problem with it. They've been attacked by Hamas. Hamas is hiding behind human shields in Gaza. IDF is going into Gaza to hunt Hamas down and kill or capture them. I'm down.
Saying AGAIN, if you're gong to claim Mossad had Hamas butcher all those people, bring the receipts. So far, all you have is supposition.
I'm afraid that's not how it is you've been listening to the news. If you're more widely read I think you'll understand by searching out. What is really going on over there. Thank you.
I've read several of your posts here Daniel. Do you really not see how lame they are? You're telling everyone you're right, and they're all wrong. But you don't tell them what they're wrong about. Nor do you provide any of the facts you found so persuasive.
You're telling people, "Do your own searches. Then you'll see what I see. "
You think we're all blank sheets of paper, and we haven't seen any information before now?
I'm asking now for the 4th time, what did you think about Palestinians' barbaric atrocities against women and children on Oct 7?
The fact you won't answer is itself an answer to the question.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas
What's your point? FJB said something one day, and recanted the next? Happens all the time. Hardly newsworthy
Anne, I have a couple of responses at hand. But first I want to know, do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not? A yes or no will do.
IтАЩve heard the reported atrocities committed against children by Hamas are lies. ThereтАЩs obviously a lot of disinformation and propaganda about what happened on Oct. 7th and what continues to happen. ItтАЩs hard to know what to believe. I wonder why your so confident about your views on this issue?
In every war both sides heavily deploy propaganda. They use emotion, outrage and empathy, to draw people to their тАШside'. There will be little truth and even less actual information about the reasons behind the conflict.
Lots of propaganda, Hamas committed crimes, they are terrorists, but lots of photoshopping going on too. In 1947 Israel had about 7% of the land, not enough for the great influx of Jews. The Arabs and Jews got along until the poison of Zionist ideology.
The NYT's reporting has been antagonistic toward Israel not just since Oct 7, but long before. I discount it's reporting heavily. However, given it's past biases, this article is credible:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Jk0.OARC.DwsHmGcWmtRr&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
A couple of excerpts follow. They are a small fraction of what was reported. Hope you have a strong stomach.
Same comment as to that little weasel Daniel. He was too cowardly to share his thoughts. I really do want to know what you think, Anne. What do you think it would be like to go through what these women went through? And what kind of animal would do what the Palestinians did? One last question- do you think the NYT's reporting is true? Or greatly exaggerated?
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. AbdushтАЩs тАФ legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
The Times viewed photographs of one womanтАЩs corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.
She said she then watched another woman тАЬshredded into pieces.тАЭ While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.
тАЬOne continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the road,тАЭ Sapir said.
She said the men sliced her face and then the woman fell out of view. Around the same time, she said, she saw three other women raped and terrorists carrying the severed heads of three more women.
You should not take the reporting of the NY Times at face value. There is considerable evidence that the stories recounted in the article you cite are actually propaganda with no evidence backing them up. Max Blumenthal and Aaron Mate of The Grayzone did an entire episode dissecting that story and showing where the flaws were:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdCd8VPo4g&t=1712s
I watched the video, and will take it onboard.
A fair amount of the Blumenthal/Mate video is speculative. example: at 7:32, they show a photo of some burned cars, and start musing, there were some Israeli tanks and Apache helicopters in the area, umm, they don't know what happened. That's not an isolated example.
They ridicule the story of the woman being raped and simultaneously stabbed in the back, and of the woman whose breast was cut off. Their commentary is, Hamas is supposed to capture prisoners and get back into Gaza... how do they have time to rape someone.., and the breast being cut off is ridiculous on its face, etc. They nitpick about the story referring to one of the attackers as "a terrorist, instead of Hamas." Sorry Robert, but B&M are on really thin ice here. They have no knowledge of what the attackers instructions were, or what their frame of mind was. They questioned why a witness would not want to have her name reported. To me that's not at all hard to understand. They couldn't help but invoke the "R" word (rayciss) while yammering their stream of consciousness. Their commentary here made it clear, they had their minds made up they're going to debunk the story, no matter the merits.
They are strongest when they can talk about lists of victims and how they died, contrasting against the more lurid claims in the NYT story.
It's a little strong to say there's considerable evidence, as you put it, the NYT story has no evidence of its own to backup the story. Maybe more accurate to say evidence is lacking all around.
I'm certainly not invested in the NYT, although I've pointed to this story numerous times in this substack. At one time I was an NYT subscriber. I'm an extreme conservative, and, reading their reporting, it reached a point for me where they didn't have any credibility. I wrote a lot of comments to their online forum- few were published. This was years before they promoted their Trump-Russia collusion hoax.
I do appreciate your bringing this to my attention. It's another data point to add to the mix.
Perhaps these kinds of abuse by Israeli soldiers against Palestinian women are one of the reasons why orthodox Jews don't support Zionism:
https://www.sott.net/article/484516-From-humiliation-to-rape-The-untold-story-of-Israels-abuse-of-Palestinian-women?ysclid=lqubmt75l2732157292
You're the guy who trying to participate in the conversation, and makes a comment about the thing people were talking about 15 minutes beforehand.
I'm skeptical about all news stories, no matter the source, until I've been able to see some corroboration.
It's undeniable Hamas has lied. Copy & paste from my post 6 posts above: On the other side of it, Hamas claimed an Israeli missile hit a hospital and killed 500 people. The NY Times repeated their claim w/o corroborating. Israeli and US military provided electronic warfare data to NYT, and they had to "add context" to the reporting ( a euphemism for correcting a false story). It was a Hamas missile that had gone off course, not Israeli. It hit a parking lot, not a hospital. It may or may not have killed some people, but almost certainly not 500.
NYT is to blame, but Hamas originated the lie. Disinformation is their stock-in-trade.
Moonspinner, I've asked questions about Hamas staging fake scenes 4 or 5 times before. Nobody has yet answered. Maybe you will be the first.
1. What's going on in this video? Why are these people staging a fake funeral:
http://tinyurl.com/294yacdv
2. Why does this same crisis actor, Mr. FAFO appear in so many videos that have OBVIOUSLY BEEN STAGED?
http://tinyurl.com/33t96s6x
These are attempts to deceive. Do you disagree?
Both sides will attempt to deceive. It happens in all wars. Do you disagree?
I don't disagree. But I'm not agreeing both sides are equally dishonest.
Has Israel staged fake funerals? Does Israel have a crisis actor equivalent of Mr. FAFO?
Don't be so naive. Israel is just as experienced in false flags, fake "crises," LIHOPS (Let it happen on purpose), and other skullduggery as any of their enemies or allies. All is fair in love and war, eh? You *do* know what one of the mottoes of Mossad is, right? They are a clever bunch.
A little history for ya ...
"In July, 1954, an Israeli terrorist cell was activated inside Egypt. The ensuing attacks, cleverly designed to look like the work of Arabs, blasted and torched American and British targets. First, the Israeli terrorists firebombed the Alexandria Post Office. Then, they firebombed the US Information Agency libraries: one in Alexandria, and one in Cairo. Then, they firebombed a British-owned Metro-Goldwyn Mayer theatre, a railway terminal, the central post office, and a couple more theatres...
To smuggle their bombs inside the buildings, the terrorists used devices shaped like books, hiding them inside book covers. Once inside, bags filled with acid were placed on top of the nitroglycerin bombs. After several hours, the acid ate through the bags and ignited the nitroglycerin, causing explosions and blazing infernos.
In the early 1950s, the United States was making fast friends with Egypt, taking advantage of the new pan-Arab Egyptian government of Gamal Abdel Nasser. The warming relationship between the US and Egypt caused a very insecure Israel to feel threatened. Nassar also had plans to nationalize the Suez Canal, which had been controlled by the British for decades. Egypt had been known to blockade Israeli shipping through the canal and Israel feared Nassar would make a blockade permanent. After US President Eisenhower began encouraging the British to leave the Suez Canal Zone, Israel started looking for a way to make the British stay, and a way to remain best buddies with America. And what better way to treat your best friend than to stab them in the back and tell them one of your other friends did it?
David Ben Gurion, Israel's founding prime minister, thought that Egyptian terrorist attacks against Americans would be a perfect way to cool the growing US/Egypt relationship. Since there were no Egyptians planning attacks against Americans, Ben Gurion's prot├йg├йs did the next best thing: they recruited Israeli agents to pretend to be Egyptian terrorists. The top-secret Israeli terrorist cell, Unit 131, had existed since 1948. In 1950, Israel's Directorate of Military Intelligence Aman was created and Israel sent an undercover agent, Colonel Avraham Dar (alias: John Darling, British citizen of the island of Gibraltar), to recruit more members to Unit 131. He also trained them in how to build bombs and terrify Americans and British civilians working and living in Egypt. Before the terrorist cell was activated, another Israeli agent named Avraham (Avraham Seidenberg) was sent to take control from Avraham Dar. Seidenberg first went to Germany to establish an alias: he assumed the identy of Paul Frank, a former SS officer, complete with underground Nazi connections. By 1954, his new identity was in place and he went to Egypt to take command of Unit 131. Everything was going well for the Israeli terrorists it seemed. But, there was one thing the members of Unit 131 didn't know: their terrorist sleeper cell had itself been infiltrated by the Egyptian intelligence service. The new Unit 131 leader, Seidenberg, had betrayed them to the Egyptians.
So, when Unit 131 member Philip Nathanson made his way to bomb the British-owned Rio theatre in Alexandria, not only was he being followed, the Egyptian intelligence service had a fire engine waiting to put out the flames. As Nathanson stood in the ticket line, his bad luck turned worse when one of the bombs in his pocket ignited and then exploded. Nathanson was burned but not killed. As nearby pedestrians shouted warnings and wondered if he was a suicide bomber, Egyptian policemen stepped in, calmed the crowd, and identified Nathanson as one of the terrorists who had been blowing up American and British buildings. Nathanson was interrogated by Egypt's military intelligence and confessed the whole plot, which led to more arrests. When the Israeli spies were given a public trial, all the details of their terrorist training in Israel came to light.
Former Israeli Prime Minister Ben Gurion and Israel's Aman chief, Binyamin Gibli, tried to frame their own Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon. They even offered forged documents as proof. The frame-up worked for a while, so much so that the entire incident is still popularly known as the Lavon Affair. Lavon resigned and Ben Gurion came out of political retirement to replace him as Israel's Defense Minister. However, the truth did finally emerge. In 1960, a review of the inquiry discovered the fake documents, as well as perjury by Seidenberg. A committee of seven Cabinet members cleared Lavon. Although Ben Gurion never admitted fault, he did resign his post as Defense Minister."
From the article:
тАЬBidenтАЩs claims were featured on the front pages of Western newspapers, and reports of beheaded babies have been cited in some quarters as justification for revenge attacks and the collective punishment of civilians in Gaza.
тАЬThe Israeli army has said that it cannot confirm the claims, which were repeated on Wednesday by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin NetanyahuтАЩs spokesperson Tal Heinrich.тАЭ
So, the Israeli army cannot confirm the claims. ItтАЩs not just a matter of Biden walking back something he said.
That stuff you posted is several weeks old.
I don't know if the claims of atrocities on children are true or not. If I had to bet money, I'd bet they're true. The reporting in the NYT article in my other response to you makes it completely credible. Don't you think?
How old are you? Old enough to have been alive and remember 9-11? If not, would you believe me if I told you, in the days after, there were videos of dozens of people who had jumped from the towers to their deaths. The flames were to hot to bear. You see them as they fall to their certain death, and wonder, what were they thinking in those last moments? They don't show those anymore. It would be in bad taste, I guess.
Videos of the human remains found following Oct 7 have not been released to the public for the same reason. There have been a numerous reports on people who have viewed them. They generally say they get choked up, and are traumatized by what they saw. I have zero respect for Chris Cuomo. If even he is shocked by what he saw in the videos, it must be horrific.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/chris-cuomo-after-seeing-film-of-what-hamas-did-on-october-7-israel-is-doing-far-less-than-it-could
http://tinyurl.com/2xm9mzv9
What do you think about it, Anne?
Maybe these Oct 7 atrocities are all fabricated. Horrid videos created by AI, or something. There are too many signs, they're real. In the immediate aftermath of Oct 7, there were videos of Palis - their own videos - driving down the road and shooting pedestrians on the side of the road or people in other cars. On the other side of it, Hamas claimed an Israeli missile hit a hospital and killed 500 people. The NY Times repeated their claim w/o corroborating. Israeli and US military provided electronic warfare data to NYT, and they had to "add context" to the reporting ( a euphemism for correcting a false story). It was a Hamas missile that had gone off course, not Israeli. It hit a parking lot, not a hospital. It may or may not have killed some people, but almost certainly not 500.
NYT is to blame, but Hamas originated the lie. Disinformation is their stock-in-trade.
Anne, what do you think about the fake funeral video?
https://twitter.com/joyy_ky/status/1720649186075459690
And how about Mr. FAFO- dying warrior one day, life-saving medical technician the next:
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23MrFAFO&src=typed_query
I don't automatically believe everything that comes from the Israelis either. But the Hamas agitprop is so ham-handed, it entirely destroys their credibility.
It *should* be common knowledge by now, if anyone learned from history, that the phrase "the fog of war" is rather apt, and lies and propaganda are invented by those wishing to manipulate the people into launching or supporting war. Recall the famous lie that was used to get the US into the Gulf War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Even if the lies are later shown to be lies, the damage is done, and many don't even hear about the retractions.
You ask: "... do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?"
I have a question, too. Have you never heard of a LIHOP? Don't you think Bibi, who was in deep legal trouble at the time, is the kind of person who would be willing to have some Israelis sacrificed in order to use that excuse to genocide (erase completely from Gaza) 2.2 million Palestinians? Let me ask YOU a question. How many Jews were killed by Hamas in early October? For each Jew killed by Hamas (and we now know that some were killed by Israeli soldiers, per the Israeli survivors), how many Palestinian women and children do you believe should be murdered or starved to death in revenge? Or kicked out of their homes and sent to tent cities in Sinai?
First, I don't believe any Palestinian women and children should be murdered or starved to death.
You didn't answer the question- do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?
I do not believe Israel has committed atrocities against the Palestinians. They know they are under the microscope. They are aware there are plenty of critics who want to find reasons to get them to stop their destruction of Hamas.
That's not to say there hasn't been collateral harm to Pali civilians as the IDF wages war against Hamas, who is using civilians as human shields. But I do believe Israel genuinely works hard to minimize such harm.
You write: "First, I don't believe any Palestinian women and children should be murdered or starved to death." Then why are you supporting the Zionists while they are doing this? I don't SUPPORT either one -- but murdering and starving thousands of Palestinian women and children for every Israeli killed on October 7 is EVIL INCARNATE, especially when there is evidence (from retired IDF, no less) that the Oct 7 mess was "allowed" to happen. Pay attention in future to what the final death count will be of Israelis vs Palestinians, and then also the numbers of Palestinians removed from their homes and sent into exile outside of Israel.
You ask a question the actual answer to which neither one of us can know -- so why do you keep on asking it? You yet again ask "do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?" AGAIN, HOW CAN EITHER YOU OR I POSSIBLY KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT? You've admitted that both sides can lie and deceive to gain support for their actions. We have evidence of just how convincing propaganda can be (did you fall for the ubiquitous Covid propaganda, the "safe and effective" Covid "vaccines"? Billions of people did!!).
As I've written previously, I, too, can come up with descriptions of atrocities that Israelis have committed against Palestinians for decades. Go to yandex.com and type in Israeli atrocities against Palestinians, and then I can ask you "do YOU think Israel committed the atrocities they've been accused of, or not?" Again, don't be so naive.
https://www.brasscheck.com/video/israels-strategy-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/
I did as you asked, and went to yandex, and did the search on the terms you suggested.
The first item that pops is one with this claim: The repression from Israel is the worst form of Apartheid
https://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/the-deathmasters-israeli-massacres-on-palestinians/
Isn't it true that Arabs live in Israel with full rights as citizens, including ability to be elected to the Knesset? Well? Isn't it?
To claim Israel practices apartheid doesn't pass the smell test.
https://www.brasscheck.com/video/israels-strategy-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/
You believe everything said by some woman in a video?
I'm not saying it didn't happen. Perhaps it happened exactly as she described.
One of the first things I read this morning was a story about 6 different young women being detained by the IDF for carrying a knife. 6 different people- but the picture is each of the 6 stories in Palestinian newspapers was the same.
The Girl With Six Identities - https://pjmedia.com/robert-spencer/2023/12/31/the-girl-with-six-identities-n4925131
How do you explain that?
Hamas accused Israel of hitting a hospital with a rocket and killing 500 people. NYT reported the story as Hamas relayed it. Israeli and US military provided electronic data showing the rocket was not Israeli, but a Hamas rocket that went off course. And it landed in a parking lot. It didn't hit a hospital. NYT had to "add context" to their story - a way to correct a false story w/o fessing up.
EditorsтАЩ Note: Gaza Hospital Coverage - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/pageoneplus/editors-note-gaza-hospital-coverage.html
Repeating- the lie came from Hamas.
Why are these people faking a funeral? https://twitter.com/joyy_ky/status/1720649186075459690
Mr. FAFO is a crisis actor who has appeared in numerous videos- each time LARPing a different role. One day he's a dying warrior, the next day he's a doctor saving a patient's life: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23MrFAFO&src=typed_query
The Palestinians lie repeatedly. There may be a little bit of truth in there somewhere. But I sure as hell don't believe everything they say.
I am a skeptic about everything, including what the Israelis say. I don't believe anything until I've seen the same reporting from more than one credible source.
What do you think about the Hamas lies I've listed here?
Here I go again, having to repeat this for about the 3rd time.
Hamas and others made the claim the 10/7 atrocities were a hoax. According to them the atrocities did not happen. I've already written about their lie on an Israel rocket hitting a hospital, so they lose credibility points.
NYT has been adversarial to Israel for a very long time. With their history of anti-Israel bias, their reporting on the atrocities, which I've already provided a link to, had credibility.
Additionally, several people were invited to view videos of the carnage. Chris Cuomo was one, but there were many others. All who have viewed the videos have commented on how disturbing they were. Here's the stuff from Cuomo.
http://tinyurl.com/2xm9mzv9
Finally, the UN Sec General acknowledged the atrocities actually happened, as I noted in an earlier comment to you.
How much more do you want?
Rather like intentional "friendly fire" --
"Another Israeli Channel 12 report profiled a soldier who said she was ordered to open fire on homes in kibbutz Holit whether there were civilians inside or not. Indeed, ten Israelis were killed in Holit."
https://azradale.substack.com/p/more-details-of-israeli-mass-hannibal
"Two months after the events of October 7, shocking new testimony reveals that the Israeli military, using an arsenal of gunfire, tank shelling and guided LAU missiles, killed almost certainly all but one of the 14 hostages held in a house in kibbutz BeтАЩeri тАУ along with their Hamas captors.
The testimony, published by Israel's Channel 12, was delivered by the sole survivor from the massacre inside one house, Hadas Dagan, a resident of BeтАЩeri who had previously maintained her silence."
You're late to the party again.
I've already acknowledged Israel has killed it's own people, in a response to Daniel, above, copied & pasted here:
'"On the question of intentions Daniel, does it matter that the Oct 7 attack by Hamas was carried out with the deliberate intent to rape and torture as many civilians as possible? And that non-Hamas Palestinians ventured out of Gaza to "me-too" the atrocities? Israel, OTOH, has made genuine efforts to minimize harm to civilians while attempting to eliminated Hamas terrorists, but yet killed civilians- not only Palis, but it's own Israeli civilians. In short, do intentions matter? Daniel?"
Daniel pussied out and didn't answer the question. How about you give it a try. Do intentions matter, Moonspinner?
You act as if I have to read every single posting of yours in order to comment. You act as if I have to comment WHEN you think it appropriate (you write that I'm "late to the party again"). What arrogance.
How do you know what was the "intent" of Hamas, when I assume you weren't among them and privy to their thoughts and words? You're a mind reader? You assume that what you read on the mainstream news about the "rape and torture" is true? How do you know it's true?
You surely must know that Mossad has infiltrated Hamas long ago and has been financially supporting them. As I wrote elsewhere, Mossad is a rather clever organization. This October 7 "LIHOP" sure appears to be one of Mossad's common enough false flags -- a means to a long-desired end -- it's the excuse for the genocide of the Palestinians -- getting rid of all of them, by death or exile.
Netanyahu Bragged About Zionist Support for Hamas
https://kurtnimmo.substack.com/p/netanyahu-bragged-about-zionist-support
Scott Horton, the editorial director of the Antiwar website, has found further evidence that Hamas is an Israeli-controlled terror organization. Horton points to a recent post at the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. The article is locked up behind a paywall. However, it is posted on the Archive.org website.
During NetanyahuтАЩs fraud trial, writes Gidi Wewitz, the prime minister is quoted as declaring,
тАЬAnyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,тАЭ he told a meeting of his Likud partyтАЩs Knesset members in March 2019. тАЬThis is part of our strategyтАФto isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.тАЭ
https://archive.ph/2023.10.10-030658/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000
I commented you came late to the discussion, which you did. You seemed to think all your comments were original thinking. But they weren't. And yeah, I found it tiresome to have explain all of it AGAIN.
I can't get over how you hand-wave Hamas's atrocities away as "fog of war." That's bullshit. The Palestinian people are twisted. You're a student of this stuff, so surely you've seen videos of 8 and 10 year-olds saying they hate Jews, they want to stab a Jew, they want to be a suicide martyr. That's sick. That's Islamic/Palestinian culture that did that, not Israel.
I'm 67 yo. I've been watching these developments in the Mideast for a long time. Egypt has made peace w/ Israel. Saudi Arabia was on the verge of a peace agreement. Qatar and the Emirates were warming up.
The Palestinians and the Iranians stand apart from all the other Arab and Farsi nations. They've made it abundantly clear, THEY DO NOT WANT A PEACE WITH ISRAEL unless it involves the destruction of Israel. While they're waging their never-ending war, they're lying the whole time. Israel left Gaza in 2005. They have not been there to oppress the Palis, which is a claim repeated ad nauseum. Western nations have donated $billions to Gaza. Instead of using it for economic and human development, they use it to build tunnels and home-made rockets, which they aim at civilians.
You may be right. This may all be machinations by Netanyahu. I'm skeptical. But it's possible.
The stuff I know about Hamas is stuff I've cross-checked with corroboration from multiple sources. If you want to be persuasive in what you're saying about Netanyahu, bring the receipts. Something going beyond a single report in a Palestinian newspaper, an Israeli paper (Israel has its equivalents of Trump-hating NYT writing stories about Trump-Russia collusion, which as you know, were false), or the say-so of Mr. FAFO.
You write: "You're a student of this stuff, so surely you've seen videos of 8 and 10 year-olds saying they hate Jews, they want to stab a Jew, they want to be a suicide martyr. That's sick."
Behold, the Jewish children doing the same. That's sick.
https://twitter.com/intifada/status/1726345295515058255
I don't have to convince you. You are so sure that what you see and hear from the mainstream media is true regarding Hamas atrocities (they may very well be true, and may very well be planned that way by Mossad, which, you have to admit, is a clever psyop), but then you admit that the mainstream media's Trump-Russia collusion reporting was false. Why trust the mainstream media at all? I don't.
And there's plenty of retired IDF (I don't have to do research for you -- it takes time, and I'm through with this conversation) who are convinced that Bibi is resurrecting his "statesman" facade, to get him out of legal trouble. I've noted their opinions. But now that you know Bibi might be the real instigator for this "Greater Israel" dream, and this might very well be a rather masterful LIHOP (leave it to Mossad to pull off something like this), you're welcome to do the research yourself.
Heh. You really don't know me at all. AFAIC, MSM is lower than whale shit.
I wrote my reasons for giving credibility to the reports of Hamas atrocities in another post to you. Are you going to have me repeat them AGAIN?
As far as the song, I don't have a problem with it. They've been attacked by Hamas. Hamas is hiding behind human shields in Gaza. IDF is going into Gaza to hunt Hamas down and kill or capture them. I'm down.
Saying AGAIN, if you're gong to claim Mossad had Hamas butcher all those people, bring the receipts. So far, all you have is supposition.
Isn't that right?