The NYT's reporting has been antagonistic toward Israel not just since Oct 7, but long before. I discount it's reporting heavily. However, given it's past biases, this article is credible:
The NYT's reporting has been antagonistic toward Israel not just since Oct 7, but long before. I discount it's reporting heavily. However, given it's past biases, this article is credible:
A couple of excerpts follow. They are a small fraction of what was reported. Hope you have a strong stomach.
Same comment as to that little weasel Daniel. He was too cowardly to share his thoughts. I really do want to know what you think, Anne. What do you think it would be like to go through what these women went through? And what kind of animal would do what the Palestinians did? One last question- do you think the NYT's reporting is true? Or greatly exaggerated?
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.
She said she then watched another woman “shredded into pieces.” While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.
“One continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the road,” Sapir said.
She said the men sliced her face and then the woman fell out of view. Around the same time, she said, she saw three other women raped and terrorists carrying the severed heads of three more women.
You should not take the reporting of the NY Times at face value. There is considerable evidence that the stories recounted in the article you cite are actually propaganda with no evidence backing them up. Max Blumenthal and Aaron Mate of The Grayzone did an entire episode dissecting that story and showing where the flaws were:
A fair amount of the Blumenthal/Mate video is speculative. example: at 7:32, they show a photo of some burned cars, and start musing, there were some Israeli tanks and Apache helicopters in the area, umm, they don't know what happened. That's not an isolated example.
They ridicule the story of the woman being raped and simultaneously stabbed in the back, and of the woman whose breast was cut off. Their commentary is, Hamas is supposed to capture prisoners and get back into Gaza... how do they have time to rape someone.., and the breast being cut off is ridiculous on its face, etc. They nitpick about the story referring to one of the attackers as "a terrorist, instead of Hamas." Sorry Robert, but B&M are on really thin ice here. They have no knowledge of what the attackers instructions were, or what their frame of mind was. They questioned why a witness would not want to have her name reported. To me that's not at all hard to understand. They couldn't help but invoke the "R" word (rayciss) while yammering their stream of consciousness. Their commentary here made it clear, they had their minds made up they're going to debunk the story, no matter the merits.
They are strongest when they can talk about lists of victims and how they died, contrasting against the more lurid claims in the NYT story.
It's a little strong to say there's considerable evidence, as you put it, the NYT story has no evidence of its own to backup the story. Maybe more accurate to say evidence is lacking all around.
I'm certainly not invested in the NYT, although I've pointed to this story numerous times in this substack. At one time I was an NYT subscriber. I'm an extreme conservative, and, reading their reporting, it reached a point for me where they didn't have any credibility. I wrote a lot of comments to their online forum- few were published. This was years before they promoted their Trump-Russia collusion hoax.
I do appreciate your bringing this to my attention. It's another data point to add to the mix.
You're the guy who trying to participate in the conversation, and makes a comment about the thing people were talking about 15 minutes beforehand.
I'm skeptical about all news stories, no matter the source, until I've been able to see some corroboration.
It's undeniable Hamas has lied. Copy & paste from my post 6 posts above: On the other side of it, Hamas claimed an Israeli missile hit a hospital and killed 500 people. The NY Times repeated their claim w/o corroborating. Israeli and US military provided electronic warfare data to NYT, and they had to "add context" to the reporting ( a euphemism for correcting a false story). It was a Hamas missile that had gone off course, not Israeli. It hit a parking lot, not a hospital. It may or may not have killed some people, but almost certainly not 500.
NYT is to blame, but Hamas originated the lie. Disinformation is their stock-in-trade.
Moonspinner, I've asked questions about Hamas staging fake scenes 4 or 5 times before. Nobody has yet answered. Maybe you will be the first.
1. What's going on in this video? Why are these people staging a fake funeral:
Don't be so naive. Israel is just as experienced in false flags, fake "crises," LIHOPS (Let it happen on purpose), and other skullduggery as any of their enemies or allies. All is fair in love and war, eh? You *do* know what one of the mottoes of Mossad is, right? They are a clever bunch.
A little history for ya ...
"In July, 1954, an Israeli terrorist cell was activated inside Egypt. The ensuing attacks, cleverly designed to look like the work of Arabs, blasted and torched American and British targets. First, the Israeli terrorists firebombed the Alexandria Post Office. Then, they firebombed the US Information Agency libraries: one in Alexandria, and one in Cairo. Then, they firebombed a British-owned Metro-Goldwyn Mayer theatre, a railway terminal, the central post office, and a couple more theatres...
To smuggle their bombs inside the buildings, the terrorists used devices shaped like books, hiding them inside book covers. Once inside, bags filled with acid were placed on top of the nitroglycerin bombs. After several hours, the acid ate through the bags and ignited the nitroglycerin, causing explosions and blazing infernos.
In the early 1950s, the United States was making fast friends with Egypt, taking advantage of the new pan-Arab Egyptian government of Gamal Abdel Nasser. The warming relationship between the US and Egypt caused a very insecure Israel to feel threatened. Nassar also had plans to nationalize the Suez Canal, which had been controlled by the British for decades. Egypt had been known to blockade Israeli shipping through the canal and Israel feared Nassar would make a blockade permanent. After US President Eisenhower began encouraging the British to leave the Suez Canal Zone, Israel started looking for a way to make the British stay, and a way to remain best buddies with America. And what better way to treat your best friend than to stab them in the back and tell them one of your other friends did it?
David Ben Gurion, Israel's founding prime minister, thought that Egyptian terrorist attacks against Americans would be a perfect way to cool the growing US/Egypt relationship. Since there were no Egyptians planning attacks against Americans, Ben Gurion's protégés did the next best thing: they recruited Israeli agents to pretend to be Egyptian terrorists. The top-secret Israeli terrorist cell, Unit 131, had existed since 1948. In 1950, Israel's Directorate of Military Intelligence Aman was created and Israel sent an undercover agent, Colonel Avraham Dar (alias: John Darling, British citizen of the island of Gibraltar), to recruit more members to Unit 131. He also trained them in how to build bombs and terrify Americans and British civilians working and living in Egypt. Before the terrorist cell was activated, another Israeli agent named Avraham (Avraham Seidenberg) was sent to take control from Avraham Dar. Seidenberg first went to Germany to establish an alias: he assumed the identy of Paul Frank, a former SS officer, complete with underground Nazi connections. By 1954, his new identity was in place and he went to Egypt to take command of Unit 131. Everything was going well for the Israeli terrorists it seemed. But, there was one thing the members of Unit 131 didn't know: their terrorist sleeper cell had itself been infiltrated by the Egyptian intelligence service. The new Unit 131 leader, Seidenberg, had betrayed them to the Egyptians.
So, when Unit 131 member Philip Nathanson made his way to bomb the British-owned Rio theatre in Alexandria, not only was he being followed, the Egyptian intelligence service had a fire engine waiting to put out the flames. As Nathanson stood in the ticket line, his bad luck turned worse when one of the bombs in his pocket ignited and then exploded. Nathanson was burned but not killed. As nearby pedestrians shouted warnings and wondered if he was a suicide bomber, Egyptian policemen stepped in, calmed the crowd, and identified Nathanson as one of the terrorists who had been blowing up American and British buildings. Nathanson was interrogated by Egypt's military intelligence and confessed the whole plot, which led to more arrests. When the Israeli spies were given a public trial, all the details of their terrorist training in Israel came to light.
Former Israeli Prime Minister Ben Gurion and Israel's Aman chief, Binyamin Gibli, tried to frame their own Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon. They even offered forged documents as proof. The frame-up worked for a while, so much so that the entire incident is still popularly known as the Lavon Affair. Lavon resigned and Ben Gurion came out of political retirement to replace him as Israel's Defense Minister. However, the truth did finally emerge. In 1960, a review of the inquiry discovered the fake documents, as well as perjury by Seidenberg. A committee of seven Cabinet members cleared Lavon. Although Ben Gurion never admitted fault, he did resign his post as Defense Minister."
The NYT's reporting has been antagonistic toward Israel not just since Oct 7, but long before. I discount it's reporting heavily. However, given it's past biases, this article is credible:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Jk0.OARC.DwsHmGcWmtRr&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
A couple of excerpts follow. They are a small fraction of what was reported. Hope you have a strong stomach.
Same comment as to that little weasel Daniel. He was too cowardly to share his thoughts. I really do want to know what you think, Anne. What do you think it would be like to go through what these women went through? And what kind of animal would do what the Palestinians did? One last question- do you think the NYT's reporting is true? Or greatly exaggerated?
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.
She said she then watched another woman “shredded into pieces.” While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box cutter and sliced off her breast.
“One continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the road,” Sapir said.
She said the men sliced her face and then the woman fell out of view. Around the same time, she said, she saw three other women raped and terrorists carrying the severed heads of three more women.
You should not take the reporting of the NY Times at face value. There is considerable evidence that the stories recounted in the article you cite are actually propaganda with no evidence backing them up. Max Blumenthal and Aaron Mate of The Grayzone did an entire episode dissecting that story and showing where the flaws were:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXdCd8VPo4g&t=1712s
I watched the video, and will take it onboard.
A fair amount of the Blumenthal/Mate video is speculative. example: at 7:32, they show a photo of some burned cars, and start musing, there were some Israeli tanks and Apache helicopters in the area, umm, they don't know what happened. That's not an isolated example.
They ridicule the story of the woman being raped and simultaneously stabbed in the back, and of the woman whose breast was cut off. Their commentary is, Hamas is supposed to capture prisoners and get back into Gaza... how do they have time to rape someone.., and the breast being cut off is ridiculous on its face, etc. They nitpick about the story referring to one of the attackers as "a terrorist, instead of Hamas." Sorry Robert, but B&M are on really thin ice here. They have no knowledge of what the attackers instructions were, or what their frame of mind was. They questioned why a witness would not want to have her name reported. To me that's not at all hard to understand. They couldn't help but invoke the "R" word (rayciss) while yammering their stream of consciousness. Their commentary here made it clear, they had their minds made up they're going to debunk the story, no matter the merits.
They are strongest when they can talk about lists of victims and how they died, contrasting against the more lurid claims in the NYT story.
It's a little strong to say there's considerable evidence, as you put it, the NYT story has no evidence of its own to backup the story. Maybe more accurate to say evidence is lacking all around.
I'm certainly not invested in the NYT, although I've pointed to this story numerous times in this substack. At one time I was an NYT subscriber. I'm an extreme conservative, and, reading their reporting, it reached a point for me where they didn't have any credibility. I wrote a lot of comments to their online forum- few were published. This was years before they promoted their Trump-Russia collusion hoax.
I do appreciate your bringing this to my attention. It's another data point to add to the mix.
Perhaps these kinds of abuse by Israeli soldiers against Palestinian women are one of the reasons why orthodox Jews don't support Zionism:
https://www.sott.net/article/484516-From-humiliation-to-rape-The-untold-story-of-Israels-abuse-of-Palestinian-women?ysclid=lqubmt75l2732157292
You're the guy who trying to participate in the conversation, and makes a comment about the thing people were talking about 15 minutes beforehand.
I'm skeptical about all news stories, no matter the source, until I've been able to see some corroboration.
It's undeniable Hamas has lied. Copy & paste from my post 6 posts above: On the other side of it, Hamas claimed an Israeli missile hit a hospital and killed 500 people. The NY Times repeated their claim w/o corroborating. Israeli and US military provided electronic warfare data to NYT, and they had to "add context" to the reporting ( a euphemism for correcting a false story). It was a Hamas missile that had gone off course, not Israeli. It hit a parking lot, not a hospital. It may or may not have killed some people, but almost certainly not 500.
NYT is to blame, but Hamas originated the lie. Disinformation is their stock-in-trade.
Moonspinner, I've asked questions about Hamas staging fake scenes 4 or 5 times before. Nobody has yet answered. Maybe you will be the first.
1. What's going on in this video? Why are these people staging a fake funeral:
http://tinyurl.com/294yacdv
2. Why does this same crisis actor, Mr. FAFO appear in so many videos that have OBVIOUSLY BEEN STAGED?
http://tinyurl.com/33t96s6x
These are attempts to deceive. Do you disagree?
Both sides will attempt to deceive. It happens in all wars. Do you disagree?
I don't disagree. But I'm not agreeing both sides are equally dishonest.
Has Israel staged fake funerals? Does Israel have a crisis actor equivalent of Mr. FAFO?
Don't be so naive. Israel is just as experienced in false flags, fake "crises," LIHOPS (Let it happen on purpose), and other skullduggery as any of their enemies or allies. All is fair in love and war, eh? You *do* know what one of the mottoes of Mossad is, right? They are a clever bunch.
A little history for ya ...
"In July, 1954, an Israeli terrorist cell was activated inside Egypt. The ensuing attacks, cleverly designed to look like the work of Arabs, blasted and torched American and British targets. First, the Israeli terrorists firebombed the Alexandria Post Office. Then, they firebombed the US Information Agency libraries: one in Alexandria, and one in Cairo. Then, they firebombed a British-owned Metro-Goldwyn Mayer theatre, a railway terminal, the central post office, and a couple more theatres...
To smuggle their bombs inside the buildings, the terrorists used devices shaped like books, hiding them inside book covers. Once inside, bags filled with acid were placed on top of the nitroglycerin bombs. After several hours, the acid ate through the bags and ignited the nitroglycerin, causing explosions and blazing infernos.
In the early 1950s, the United States was making fast friends with Egypt, taking advantage of the new pan-Arab Egyptian government of Gamal Abdel Nasser. The warming relationship between the US and Egypt caused a very insecure Israel to feel threatened. Nassar also had plans to nationalize the Suez Canal, which had been controlled by the British for decades. Egypt had been known to blockade Israeli shipping through the canal and Israel feared Nassar would make a blockade permanent. After US President Eisenhower began encouraging the British to leave the Suez Canal Zone, Israel started looking for a way to make the British stay, and a way to remain best buddies with America. And what better way to treat your best friend than to stab them in the back and tell them one of your other friends did it?
David Ben Gurion, Israel's founding prime minister, thought that Egyptian terrorist attacks against Americans would be a perfect way to cool the growing US/Egypt relationship. Since there were no Egyptians planning attacks against Americans, Ben Gurion's protégés did the next best thing: they recruited Israeli agents to pretend to be Egyptian terrorists. The top-secret Israeli terrorist cell, Unit 131, had existed since 1948. In 1950, Israel's Directorate of Military Intelligence Aman was created and Israel sent an undercover agent, Colonel Avraham Dar (alias: John Darling, British citizen of the island of Gibraltar), to recruit more members to Unit 131. He also trained them in how to build bombs and terrify Americans and British civilians working and living in Egypt. Before the terrorist cell was activated, another Israeli agent named Avraham (Avraham Seidenberg) was sent to take control from Avraham Dar. Seidenberg first went to Germany to establish an alias: he assumed the identy of Paul Frank, a former SS officer, complete with underground Nazi connections. By 1954, his new identity was in place and he went to Egypt to take command of Unit 131. Everything was going well for the Israeli terrorists it seemed. But, there was one thing the members of Unit 131 didn't know: their terrorist sleeper cell had itself been infiltrated by the Egyptian intelligence service. The new Unit 131 leader, Seidenberg, had betrayed them to the Egyptians.
So, when Unit 131 member Philip Nathanson made his way to bomb the British-owned Rio theatre in Alexandria, not only was he being followed, the Egyptian intelligence service had a fire engine waiting to put out the flames. As Nathanson stood in the ticket line, his bad luck turned worse when one of the bombs in his pocket ignited and then exploded. Nathanson was burned but not killed. As nearby pedestrians shouted warnings and wondered if he was a suicide bomber, Egyptian policemen stepped in, calmed the crowd, and identified Nathanson as one of the terrorists who had been blowing up American and British buildings. Nathanson was interrogated by Egypt's military intelligence and confessed the whole plot, which led to more arrests. When the Israeli spies were given a public trial, all the details of their terrorist training in Israel came to light.
Former Israeli Prime Minister Ben Gurion and Israel's Aman chief, Binyamin Gibli, tried to frame their own Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon. They even offered forged documents as proof. The frame-up worked for a while, so much so that the entire incident is still popularly known as the Lavon Affair. Lavon resigned and Ben Gurion came out of political retirement to replace him as Israel's Defense Minister. However, the truth did finally emerge. In 1960, a review of the inquiry discovered the fake documents, as well as perjury by Seidenberg. A committee of seven Cabinet members cleared Lavon. Although Ben Gurion never admitted fault, he did resign his post as Defense Minister."