More or less I am referring to a time before the British and the opium wars.
After the invasions subsided. China was dormant so to speak on global trade.
Am I recollecting incorrectly? I could be. Not an expert on the rise and fall of China. I recall a really big deal on Nixon's visit, was rather historical.
Chinese history is very long and convoluted. Many eras of growth and expansion, developing a rich cultural heritage. But as with any very long history there are also periods of decline.
The end of the 19th century saw the Manchu Dynasty in a state of decay, losing control of the various regions of China, particularly those that had contact with the outside world. European powers, at that point, had been growing in influence over time, focused on exploiting weaknesses in older wealthy countries, dividing people against each other in order to step in and extract wealth any way they could.
The British were particularly good at this. They had managed to wrest control of all of South Asia for themselves and were helping themselves to the remnants of China via any means necessary including selling opium to the citizens of China, opium that came from British India, in particular the opium fields that were cultivated in what we call Afghanistan today. You see, previous to then, China needed nothing from the west but had products to sell the west, like silk and fine chinaware, that the west could only pay for with gold. Long term that was not going to work for the European powers, there’s only so much gold and they needed it for other reason. So getting large segments of the Chinese population addicted to opium created an inflexible Chinese demand for a British product that could then be used for trade. That it also broke down Chinese social order provided yet another incentive to sell opium as the ensuing chaos opened the door to force the Manchu Dynasty to create exclusive “trade zones” with certain European powers, zones where local Chinese authority was superseded by new European powers who saw to it that their new laws greatly favored themselves. China was essentially moribund by the time the Manchu Dynasty was dismantled and replaced by the Nationalist movement, early 20th century.
So yeah, if you are starting from that point, China was a sick joke. Anything after point was going to be better than that.
Short version, China under the Nationalists fought against the Japanese invasion, not very successfully but they also didn’t collapse entirely. Considering that Japan was at that point a united nation with modern military equipment, fully focused on conquering all of East Asia, and China had just barely started to put itself back together as a nation, (most special trade zones still were operating like Macau and Hong Kong) not altogether collapsing under Japanese aggression was really quite remarkable.
Nonetheless it was the Chinese communists, using help from the Soviet Union, who put up the most resistance to the Japanese and who were seen as the salvation of their nation.
The Nationalists were seen as puppets of the west. The communists were seen as puppets of the Soviet Union which stood in opposition to the west. Considering what the west had done to China in the previous century it made sense to trust the enemy of the west to be their ally.
Nixon’s overture to China was another remarkable turning point in history, ours and theirs.
It marked the beginning of Chinese independence from the Soviet Union but not at the cost to their own sovereignty. Shrewd move on their part, one that is still playing out to their advantage now as they have become the world’s second largest economy. Quite a remarkable feat considering that 100 years previously China was a basket case.
For the US it also was a remarkable turning point as China was no longer marching to Moscow’s orders and could be counted on to remain on the sidelines of the intractable enmity between the US and the USSR. China could sit idly by as we proceeded to decimate each other via proxy wars, Vietnam and elsewhere. Smooth move.
Pitifully, Nixon’s opening to China came at a time when he was in deep political trouble at home. His overture to China was meant to distract attention from Watergate and the mess that followed. And it worked for a while but the dinning drums of political conflagration at home were too loud to ignore. The China initiative didn’t really take hold until after Nixon resigned from office. Succeeding US administrations were able to use this big break to their advantage. Same for succeeding Chinese administrations.
Agree with you. Taiwan will not remain independent forever.
What I don’t see is the desire of the Chinese government to build world wide military power. That would be horribly expensive with no significant benefit to their oligarchy.
They would rather negotiate trade agreements that greatly favor the immediate interests of their powerful elite.
You can see this policy in place with Chinese investments in Africa and South America. One of the key difference between Chinese investments in foreign countries, mining in particular, and American investments in foreign mines is that the Americans will build the roads and schools and other infrastructure that supports the local population needed to work those mines. That infrastructure remains in place long after the mines play out. The Chinese investors, however, minimize their auxiliary expenses to maximize their profits, leaving behind a ruined land and creating no significant long term benefit to the local population. Not that the Americans are exactly angels, but there is at least an attempt at creating long term favorable impression in those countries that will allow the Americans to return for more mineral developments.
This is the Readers Digest Version of the Longest Dynasty's of the largest population.
My comment was not a sick joke. Just an observation that many others had said about the Great Wall being a barrier "Both Ways" to inhibit culture and commerce.
We were attempting to build one here in the USA. Berlin once had one as well.
Ahhh…, that’s a stretch. You might want to actually read about Chinese history before you offer an opinion about it.
More or less I am referring to a time before the British and the opium wars.
After the invasions subsided. China was dormant so to speak on global trade.
Am I recollecting incorrectly? I could be. Not an expert on the rise and fall of China. I recall a really big deal on Nixon's visit, was rather historical.
That clarification helps.
Chinese history is very long and convoluted. Many eras of growth and expansion, developing a rich cultural heritage. But as with any very long history there are also periods of decline.
The end of the 19th century saw the Manchu Dynasty in a state of decay, losing control of the various regions of China, particularly those that had contact with the outside world. European powers, at that point, had been growing in influence over time, focused on exploiting weaknesses in older wealthy countries, dividing people against each other in order to step in and extract wealth any way they could.
The British were particularly good at this. They had managed to wrest control of all of South Asia for themselves and were helping themselves to the remnants of China via any means necessary including selling opium to the citizens of China, opium that came from British India, in particular the opium fields that were cultivated in what we call Afghanistan today. You see, previous to then, China needed nothing from the west but had products to sell the west, like silk and fine chinaware, that the west could only pay for with gold. Long term that was not going to work for the European powers, there’s only so much gold and they needed it for other reason. So getting large segments of the Chinese population addicted to opium created an inflexible Chinese demand for a British product that could then be used for trade. That it also broke down Chinese social order provided yet another incentive to sell opium as the ensuing chaos opened the door to force the Manchu Dynasty to create exclusive “trade zones” with certain European powers, zones where local Chinese authority was superseded by new European powers who saw to it that their new laws greatly favored themselves. China was essentially moribund by the time the Manchu Dynasty was dismantled and replaced by the Nationalist movement, early 20th century.
So yeah, if you are starting from that point, China was a sick joke. Anything after point was going to be better than that.
Short version, China under the Nationalists fought against the Japanese invasion, not very successfully but they also didn’t collapse entirely. Considering that Japan was at that point a united nation with modern military equipment, fully focused on conquering all of East Asia, and China had just barely started to put itself back together as a nation, (most special trade zones still were operating like Macau and Hong Kong) not altogether collapsing under Japanese aggression was really quite remarkable.
Nonetheless it was the Chinese communists, using help from the Soviet Union, who put up the most resistance to the Japanese and who were seen as the salvation of their nation.
The Nationalists were seen as puppets of the west. The communists were seen as puppets of the Soviet Union which stood in opposition to the west. Considering what the west had done to China in the previous century it made sense to trust the enemy of the west to be their ally.
Nixon’s overture to China was another remarkable turning point in history, ours and theirs.
It marked the beginning of Chinese independence from the Soviet Union but not at the cost to their own sovereignty. Shrewd move on their part, one that is still playing out to their advantage now as they have become the world’s second largest economy. Quite a remarkable feat considering that 100 years previously China was a basket case.
For the US it also was a remarkable turning point as China was no longer marching to Moscow’s orders and could be counted on to remain on the sidelines of the intractable enmity between the US and the USSR. China could sit idly by as we proceeded to decimate each other via proxy wars, Vietnam and elsewhere. Smooth move.
Pitifully, Nixon’s opening to China came at a time when he was in deep political trouble at home. His overture to China was meant to distract attention from Watergate and the mess that followed. And it worked for a while but the dinning drums of political conflagration at home were too loud to ignore. The China initiative didn’t really take hold until after Nixon resigned from office. Succeeding US administrations were able to use this big break to their advantage. Same for succeeding Chinese administrations.
Just how reliable is the handshakes between the Kremlin and Beijing recently?
What was the "real agreement" presented with a grand stage of commitments?
You truly have a rock solid understanding of maybe what's next!
Taiwan forced to return to CCP mainland hold?
Agree with you. Taiwan will not remain independent forever.
What I don’t see is the desire of the Chinese government to build world wide military power. That would be horribly expensive with no significant benefit to their oligarchy.
They would rather negotiate trade agreements that greatly favor the immediate interests of their powerful elite.
You can see this policy in place with Chinese investments in Africa and South America. One of the key difference between Chinese investments in foreign countries, mining in particular, and American investments in foreign mines is that the Americans will build the roads and schools and other infrastructure that supports the local population needed to work those mines. That infrastructure remains in place long after the mines play out. The Chinese investors, however, minimize their auxiliary expenses to maximize their profits, leaving behind a ruined land and creating no significant long term benefit to the local population. Not that the Americans are exactly angels, but there is at least an attempt at creating long term favorable impression in those countries that will allow the Americans to return for more mineral developments.
The New Dynasty slogan..."Let the dissolving of foreign currencies do the heavy lifting".
We have plenty of time as we always have. We are a time honored society.
Like a frugal import/export business. In time, we will buy it all up, at ten cents on the dollar.
Sounds about right.
Yikes Dave,
This is the Readers Digest Version of the Longest Dynasty's of the largest population.
My comment was not a sick joke. Just an observation that many others had said about the Great Wall being a barrier "Both Ways" to inhibit culture and commerce.
We were attempting to build one here in the USA. Berlin once had one as well.
Human barriers or Governed guardrails?