Well Twinkies were all the kids' favorites in the 1950's! That dates me.
As for bagels, I worked and played in Manhattan. The original New York Bagels I was used to came from Zabar's on the Upper West Side. I found Zabar's in 1966 and have found some close bagel replicas—close but not quite. It's probably the oil. I'll bet even Zabar's do…
Well Twinkies were all the kids' favorites in the 1950's! That dates me.
As for bagels, I worked and played in Manhattan. The original New York Bagels I was used to came from Zabar's on the Upper West Side. I found Zabar's in 1966 and have found some close bagel replicas—close but not quite. It's probably the oil. I'll bet even Zabar's does not use beef tallow anymore! The ones you see when you Google NYC bagels, all visibly have voids in them! Probably using canola seed oil or some other poisonous oil. Not good.
No 😆, the holes/pores probably arise during the boiling step. Perhaps a higher hydration percentage than originally used - a low hydration dough can be difficult to work, in its own way, just as high hydration brings its own difficulties.
As for the use of "poisonous" seed oils, also not an issue: I wouldn’t expect to find any fat of any source in a real bagel — flour water salt. Flavor develops from the flour or combination of flours used, the additions that may be used in the boiling water. I think the traditional boiling water had some lye in it, I’ve heard use of brown sugar, molasses, baking soda, malt/malt extract - the purpose being to change the character of the exterior (crunchy) while making the interior chewy through a quick dip in boiling water plus { stuff }. Prolly why I enjoy baking so much - it’s chemistry plus ____ .
Me luvs a good bagel.
Shoot, almost forgot: protein percentage, and this I’d have to double check: you may want a low protein flour for bagels - you’re NOT trying for high gluten so a low protein, or at least a protein that doesn’t readily form gluten, should be ideal — hence, a chewy interior. Thinking about this, it actually makes sense; original bagels were of Eastern European design, a place where rye was well suited, rye doesn’t form gluten well and when it does it does so in the presence of an acid which would make sourdough, or naturally leavened dough, ideal. 🤔 I think I have a homework assignment. 💡
Good info and dialogue. I believe the great Bagels of NYC had some oil to make the top shiny and "waterproof". I am not concerned at all about gluten. I think that is another manufactured marketing business idea. I seem to learn that humans have eaten gluten for...what? 80,000 years ≠ a few millennia? And saturated fat bad, salt bad, cholesterol bad, therefore eggs bad, whole milk bad, omega 3 great, oh, now maybe not so great—the beat goes on, and clever people are sailing around the Caribbean as we speak.
Oh, wow, now I’m really feeling unhealthy: plan to have a sausage in my stir fry tonight, just bought some full fat whole milk powder (added milk solids for when I make yogurt - eliminates the straining step), I’ve eaten at least one hard cooked egg.
As for gluten in the hominid diet, that’s a relatively recent addition. We’re still growing them, and they make a great addition to "traditional" flour, but grains older than, say, 15K years only contained a single copy of their genetic material and as a result gluten wasn’t really much of a by product. But that’s alright - original bread was a naturally leavened or unleavened flat bread, think pita or naan (although naan is an enriched dough and also of recent creation. Anyway, as man started settling down forming ever larger communities, moving from hunter-gatherer and more agrarian, our ancestors planted more and more grain and in that process the genetic material first doubled, tripled and now our most important "wheats’ are 4x; what we selected for naturally in the past we’ve now put into hyperdrive to have "more/better" gluten (which may be implicated in the rise of gluten sensitivity (and maybe celiac disease?).
As much as I have a fondness for Neanderthals, I’ve come across no evidence bread of any derivation was in their diet - eating handfuls of wild grains I would think but processing it, hard to see
Yes, I saw a show on Nat Geo that may or may not be true. Nevertheless, genetics have been selected mechanically then, and nowadays, accelerated through genomics. But it was always selected. Starting with little scrawny wheat grasses and puny little maizes. Same old, same old...but faster now. Bottom line, life expectancy goes up dramatically in the past 200 years. (But is that necessarily a good thing? Sometimes I wonder...)
Well Twinkies were all the kids' favorites in the 1950's! That dates me.
As for bagels, I worked and played in Manhattan. The original New York Bagels I was used to came from Zabar's on the Upper West Side. I found Zabar's in 1966 and have found some close bagel replicas—close but not quite. It's probably the oil. I'll bet even Zabar's does not use beef tallow anymore! The ones you see when you Google NYC bagels, all visibly have voids in them! Probably using canola seed oil or some other poisonous oil. Not good.
No 😆, the holes/pores probably arise during the boiling step. Perhaps a higher hydration percentage than originally used - a low hydration dough can be difficult to work, in its own way, just as high hydration brings its own difficulties.
As for the use of "poisonous" seed oils, also not an issue: I wouldn’t expect to find any fat of any source in a real bagel — flour water salt. Flavor develops from the flour or combination of flours used, the additions that may be used in the boiling water. I think the traditional boiling water had some lye in it, I’ve heard use of brown sugar, molasses, baking soda, malt/malt extract - the purpose being to change the character of the exterior (crunchy) while making the interior chewy through a quick dip in boiling water plus { stuff }. Prolly why I enjoy baking so much - it’s chemistry plus ____ .
Me luvs a good bagel.
Shoot, almost forgot: protein percentage, and this I’d have to double check: you may want a low protein flour for bagels - you’re NOT trying for high gluten so a low protein, or at least a protein that doesn’t readily form gluten, should be ideal — hence, a chewy interior. Thinking about this, it actually makes sense; original bagels were of Eastern European design, a place where rye was well suited, rye doesn’t form gluten well and when it does it does so in the presence of an acid which would make sourdough, or naturally leavened dough, ideal. 🤔 I think I have a homework assignment. 💡
Good info and dialogue. I believe the great Bagels of NYC had some oil to make the top shiny and "waterproof". I am not concerned at all about gluten. I think that is another manufactured marketing business idea. I seem to learn that humans have eaten gluten for...what? 80,000 years ≠ a few millennia? And saturated fat bad, salt bad, cholesterol bad, therefore eggs bad, whole milk bad, omega 3 great, oh, now maybe not so great—the beat goes on, and clever people are sailing around the Caribbean as we speak.
Oh, wow, now I’m really feeling unhealthy: plan to have a sausage in my stir fry tonight, just bought some full fat whole milk powder (added milk solids for when I make yogurt - eliminates the straining step), I’ve eaten at least one hard cooked egg.
As for gluten in the hominid diet, that’s a relatively recent addition. We’re still growing them, and they make a great addition to "traditional" flour, but grains older than, say, 15K years only contained a single copy of their genetic material and as a result gluten wasn’t really much of a by product. But that’s alright - original bread was a naturally leavened or unleavened flat bread, think pita or naan (although naan is an enriched dough and also of recent creation. Anyway, as man started settling down forming ever larger communities, moving from hunter-gatherer and more agrarian, our ancestors planted more and more grain and in that process the genetic material first doubled, tripled and now our most important "wheats’ are 4x; what we selected for naturally in the past we’ve now put into hyperdrive to have "more/better" gluten (which may be implicated in the rise of gluten sensitivity (and maybe celiac disease?).
As much as I have a fondness for Neanderthals, I’ve come across no evidence bread of any derivation was in their diet - eating handfuls of wild grains I would think but processing it, hard to see
Yes, I saw a show on Nat Geo that may or may not be true. Nevertheless, genetics have been selected mechanically then, and nowadays, accelerated through genomics. But it was always selected. Starting with little scrawny wheat grasses and puny little maizes. Same old, same old...but faster now. Bottom line, life expectancy goes up dramatically in the past 200 years. (But is that necessarily a good thing? Sometimes I wonder...)