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lvrapplestock's avatar

Yet Tucker and Dickens reference 2 different periods of history--Dickens the start of the Industrial Revolution, whereas Tucker states the "maturation of the Industrial Revolution"-the gay 90's et al as the fruits of copious energy were coming to all. Energy, energy, Greta be damned, the well being of the common people is always dependent on surplus energy, which present political systems worldwide seem intent on destroying.

Thanks Tucker for an insightful piece.

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Shelley's avatar

I was going to post the same thing about the period. Dickens died in 1870 and even during his lifetime there was improvement all around. The Nutcracker was written 22 years later and, but for the NYC bankers funding the likes of Lennon, the revolution in Russia would not have happened nor the Great War funded by world bankers.

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Dr. K's avatar

Lol...I expect you meant Lenin (Vladimir) and not Lennon (John)...something to be said about both, though...

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Shelley's avatar

Thank you!

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Micheal Nash, Ph. D.'s avatar

Damn spell checkers! Mine bites me just like that and half the time I miss it

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Shelley's avatar

That one was in a hurry and letting my fingers do the thinking. I have found I consistently post mistakes I only see later, and people either disregard them mistakes or kindly help with a correction. I rarely go back in fix my failures.

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Mike's avatar

They're only failures when you stop. Slight imperfections can be a pleasure and provide identity.

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Shelley's avatar

Then I'll be easily identified by my many 'slight' imperfections on the key board, just like someone that cusses out of habit! I see two errors in my above post. Should I edit and fix, nah.

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Mike's avatar

But someone who cusses out of habit isn't anywhere near as nice to have a conversation with.

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Micheal Nash, Ph. D.'s avatar

The Industrial Revolution began in 1760 according to Toynbee so had been around a while before Dickens began writing

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Shelley's avatar

Reading comments here, sounds like there is disagreement as to whether the majority of people flourished because of the I.R or languished in despair and were better off in an agrarian economy.

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Micheal Nash, Ph. D.'s avatar

As a generalization, I would say folks are pretty well divided between the exploiters and the exploited, irregardless of what era they lived in. That that division exists is precisely why dreamy socialistic isms will always fail miserably.

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Shelley's avatar

Yes, in the strict sense. A socialist order under force is hard to maintain and impossible to establish without force.

Now-a-days more people that are not poor, whine and complain about the poor 'poor' people not realizing that many of those poor people feel better off than they were. It is all relative. I understand there are strivers and non-strivers. By 1990 the US population class structure for an individual’s life span resembled a bell curve generally. What happened? Politics and politicians rigging the system, including education and industry.

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Micheal Nash, Ph. D.'s avatar

The pols are taking a hard look at education finally. Just got back an encouraging letter from my state rep in response to one I sent her re education at all levels. Her response, referring to bills passed and considered indicate awareness now being followed by remediation.

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Shelley's avatar

This is promising good news Micheal! So important to have that conversation. It gives those elected a boost to keep on it.

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Rob Kay's avatar

Nearly all human progress since 1900 has been due to Socialist ideologies, and very little due to Capitalism. Discuss.

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Shelley's avatar

Explain human progress.

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Rob Kay's avatar

Historically, medieval peasants in the UK were serfs, which means Feudal slaves. The Civil War (c 1640's) saw an end to the absolute power of monarchs - well, Charles had his head chopped off - so it means that Britain had a revolution well before either France or Russia. But like most revolutions, it was led by an upsurging Middle Class - fired up with Protestant beliefs. Oliver Cromwell became a dictator, so was eventually replaced with a constitutionally limited Monarchy, with Parliament supreme.

The position of the rural peasantry in the UK was less than idyllic, hey simply had new masters, and the C18th saw the massive expansion of a division between the landowning classes, with their huge fancy houses, and the working class. By the C19th, Chartism - the precursor to Marxism, was already taking hold on the imagination of the rural and urban poor. Workers created newspapers, libraries, schools, hospital and medical support systems and early trades unions, and challenged the status quo.

Broadly speaking, the industrial workers faced massive challenges of child labour, exploitation, long hours, low wages, and rotten landlords - and they worked to overcome these injustices.

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53rd Chapter's avatar

Well, Rob, did you have a constitutionally limited Monarchy, with Parliament supreme in 1776? Reading our Declaration of Independence there was scant attention paid to your legislature, but a lot to be said about the "the present King of Great Britain." Doesn't sound like your view would have resonated with Thomas Jefferson or the other signatories of that document. Funny how the facts get in the way of your narrative. And William Wilberforce. Was he a Marxist? Gee, I didn't know. And here, silly me, I thought his motive for his fight against the slave trade was due to his Christian faith. And Edmund Burke? Just a flunky for the upper crust? No contribution from him? Your ideological enemy, I suppose.

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Rob Kay's avatar

I have no enemies that I know of. I'm interested in the Truth, and nothing but the Truth. Power always morphs and concentrates around a few key individuals, power corrupts, and eventually this all blows up and opens the door to new people, with fresh ideas. Yes, some outstanding Christians have helped human and political progress: (as have some outstanding Muslims and Hindus) ... we all owe a debt to Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela. I can see how Faith galvanises good folks, just as it can corrupt them utterly. Is the current British Monarch an Anglican, and Head of the Church? Probably not, but is represents a deep conflict of interest, and needs to be resolved. Surgically. The position is indefensible.

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53rd Chapter's avatar

Yes, the quest for Truth is absolutely essential. Yet, would we know it if it once was found? In our cultures today, with the masters of manipulation in charge of information, Truth is more elusive than ever. And now, with AI upon us, it gets even worse – to be able to dissect the official line from what actually is. And yes, power does corrupt. So church hierarchies, be they Catholic or Anglican, Muslim or Baptist, are not exempt from that corrosive influence. Don’t ask me, I wouldn’t have voted for the Henry VIII scheme from the beginning. But then, church hierarchies are not my thing anyway.

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Rob Kay's avatar

I guess that the big challenge to the powers that existed in the Medieval World, came from Caxtons Printing Press. Giving ordinary people the opportunity to read. And then, extending education to the working classes: revolutionary thinking! Needless to say, just about every generation has had to fight for such basic freedoms, and the current boundary is the Internet itself, meaning that anyone can read anything - and for free - this is creating a huge revolution in the way that we think and relate to each other. Obviously the powers that be are trying to control it.... they always do.

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Shelley's avatar

Nice history in a nutshell. Challenges make for strong people. On my maternal side, one set of family left England for Holland and then the New World in 1620. The other set of family left England in 1883 for Quebec then moved to MA.

I watched a PBS movie about Cromwell years ago. I'm always skeptical about the take-away message being provide during a dose of long ago history!

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Rob Kay's avatar

Many of the Brits who left these shores emigrated for religious reasons: I'm especially pleased that we evicted both extreme Catholics and extreme Protestants to Europe and the New World: good bloody riddance to them all!

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